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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    Sprawl is building single family on large parcels. Building an apartment building immediately adjacent to the developed area is something else. Where there are infill opportunities you zone the land for as much density/height as it takes to make it pencil out.

    It's ironic that people who consider themselves environmentalists all want the cabin in the woods with no neighbors. Do it once and you have Walden, but do it a few hundred or thousand times and you have sprawl with all its negative environmental consequences.
    "an environmentalist is a person who already has a cabin in the woods"
    what's orange and looks good on hippies?

    fire

    rails are for trains
    If I had a dollar for every time capitalism was blamed for problems caused by the government I'd be a rich fat film maker in a baseball hat.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cono Este View Post
    Build subterranean multi family. Sky lights are cool.
    Here they have discussed putting the interstate underground. Saw some places in Garmisch like that and it would be pretty cool.
    But logistically and financially doing it at this point would be a tall mountain to climb.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by rideit View Post
    It's wyoming, the zonings won't change much if at all.
    I'd think that zoning and municipal construction regulations would be the place to make changes to encourage housing supply.

    If your municipality is controlled by people who don't give a shit about the problem, it becomes another class war political issue to be solved at the polls.
    Merde De Glace On the Freak When Ski
    >>>200 cm Black Bamboo Sidewalled DPS Lotus 120 : Best Skis Ever <<<

  4. #29
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    oh, they are vociferously trying every possible angle, but they are, after all, beholden to their voters.
    That's why I jokingly referred to Eminent Domain.

    This is the number one issue for the county, period.
    All the solutions seem to fall under the 'pissing everyone off' mode.
    StokePimpin' ain't easy

  5. #30
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    Sure seems like relaxing regulations would be in the mien of the conservative pundits. No?

    It's an issue nation wide, particularly for high density areas.
    Merde De Glace On the Freak When Ski
    >>>200 cm Black Bamboo Sidewalled DPS Lotus 120 : Best Skis Ever <<<

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buster Highmen View Post
    Sure seems like relaxing regulations would be in the mien of the conservative pundits. No?

    It's an issue nation wide, particularly for high density areas.
    Well, everyone wants to be able to do what they want with their property, but damn if those neighbors want to build affordable housing on theirs.
    StokePimpin' ain't easy

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by rideit View Post
    Well, everyone wants to be able to do what they want with their property, but damn if those neighbors want to build affordable housing on theirs.
    So, the conservative principles are only valid if they protect the snobs. Got it
    Merde De Glace On the Freak When Ski
    >>>200 cm Black Bamboo Sidewalled DPS Lotus 120 : Best Skis Ever <<<

  8. #33
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    The greater-greater Toronto area is an interesting study in sprawl and urban density. Waterloo-Kitchner comes to mind. There is clearly planning going on. It is not totally clear what they are planning in the eyes of this casual observer.

  9. #34
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    rant - WTF is up w affordable housing? many people i know, and some close good friends, NOW make 6 figures or close, own an R pod, couple sleds, 2 new 4runners, a couple 7k mountain bikes plus a raft and are always taking great trips..kick those people out at some point and allow those the program was intended to support have a shot...ever drive thru one of these hoods? poster child example for living off the man.

    and worse, after some time, they wont be affordable anymore...shit, wonder how many employees the summit housing authority has on staff to do who knows what?

    my wifes biz cant find employees cause no one can move to summit...every buz up here has that issue

  10. #35
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    State of Oregon finally got fed up with NIMBYism at the local level and has essentially eliminated single family zoning.

    Eugene, who would think would be at the forefront of solving some of this basically made ADUs unaffordable and by code/zoning is encouraging high end single house development. This while they talk endlessly about their affordable housing problem and income inequality.

    This stuff won't get solved until the entrenched interests lose some power. They like that the low or moderate income riff raff is kept out.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by cycology1 View Post
    rant - WTF is up w affordable housing? many people i know, and some close good friends, NOW make 6 figures or close, own an R pod, couple sleds, 2 new 4runners, a couple 7k mountain bikes plus a raft and are always taking great trips..kick those people out at some point and allow those the program was intended to support have a shot...ever drive thru one of these hoods? poster child example for living off the man.

    and worse, after some time, they wont be affordable anymore...shit, wonder how many employees the summit housing authority has on staff to do who knows what?

    my wifes biz cant find employees cause no one can move to summit...every buz up here has that issue
    Designating housing as affordable doesn't seem to work very well, like rent control. People always manage to find a way around the restrictions. Likewise, development requirements for a certain number of affordable units in a luxury development rarely get enforced. I'm actually with Bandini on this one--let the market set the price, but keep the price down by zoning for increasing supply, relaxing design review, facilitating manufactured units, limiting the size of units, and as I said before, high density.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by cycology1 View Post
    rant - WTF is up w affordable housing? many people i know, and some close good friends, NOW make 6 figures or close, own an R pod, couple sleds, 2 new 4runners, a couple 7k mountain bikes plus a raft and are always taking great trips..kick those people out at some point and allow those the program was intended to support have a shot...ever drive thru one of these hoods? poster child example for living off the man.

    and worse, after some time, they wont be affordable anymore...shit, wonder how many employees the summit housing authority has on staff to do who knows what?

    my wifes biz cant find employees cause no one can move to summit...every buz up here has that issue
    ha ha ha
    fucking funny totally spot on
    yeah those 500k affordable deed restricted homes
    when those people go to sell out they will pressure the gov't to change the rules so they can make bank, since most of them work in gov't or their friends do it's a done deal in ten years they'll be selling for 650k each

    I know how many people are on summit's housing authority staff and I know what they do, so much to say but I can't and won't

    the butt fucker is the county won't do a $15 hr miniumum wage law becuase all the upper middle class business owner doosh bags can vote and cry the most, fuck who doesn't want to give up the vacations and bikes, skis rafts and suv's to pay someone a living wage, meanwhile they tax the rich second homeowner to death to build affordable housing because they have no voice and can't vote funny how they do things, if your not paying 15 an hr for employees that's your problem

    it's time to get serious about taxation in mtn towns, huge rooms and meals taxes, lift ticket taxes, sin taxes on alcohol, add 10% more to weed taxes on an on, but all this will some how cut into the 7k mtn bikes and 4 trips around the world a year and new sprinter vans for some

  13. #38
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    Why is the cost to build $500 a sq foot. Does it have to be that high??
    Mrs. Dougw- "I can see how one of your relatives could have been killed by an angry mob."

    Quote Originally Posted by ill-advised strategy View Post
    dougW, you motherfucking dirty son of a bitch.

  14. #39
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    A meaningful increase in supply would piss off the vested interests aka existing property owners aka voters. The goal is to pretend to solve the problem, toss a few bones to pretend to solve the problem every so often, ride the wave of escalating property values and cash out.

    unstated is, of course, the problem that such community's don't scale and that by the time you have an affordable housing "crisis" you need big buildings.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by DougW View Post
    Why is the cost to build $500 a sq foot. Does it have to be that high??
    This. There isnít any prefab design allowable in Jackson?

    As far as laws, see what California did for ADUs.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by neufox47 View Post
    This. There isn’t any prefab design allowable in Jackson?

    .
    You can do prefab, but the land is going for around $800k for a tenth of an acre, (maybe two if you luck out, east Jackson) and there really are no contiguous parcels.

    Building costs are not the main problem.
    StokePimpin' ain't easy

  17. #42
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    Any measures a town with limited housing can take to streamline ADU permitting and decrease costs is a good thing, but unless costs can somehow be dramatically decreased, very few will actually be built.

    Coupled with attempts to increase ADU supply (and overall supply by increasing density) must be regulations to prevent ADUs and smaller units in upzoned neighborhoods from becoming short term rentals. Family only or year lease minimums, otherwise the local employees will only get leases during the low season (not that one exists in Jackson). But without regulation, ALL the ADUs will become lucrative air B and Bs, which will only increase housing costs.

    It's also critical that shorts term rentals like Air BB and VRBO be regulated, because if left unregulated they dramatically increase housing costs (to rent or buy) and decrease housing supply--econ 101. The best way to do this is to only allow whole house or room rentals of less than 30 days in homes owned by a primary resident, not a second (or third) vacation home. And to limit the total number of days a primary resident is allowed to rent out a space short term to a certain number---many cities do 90 day max. This allows local homeowners (who actually live in town and are part of the community) to earn to some extra income to make ends meet, prevents investors from using ski town neighborhoods as investment vehicles, and decreases the overall number of STRs because not all primary residents will want strangers in their homes. This type of regulation also addresses the neighborhood nuisance issues from the "party houses" with absentee owners who rent out their homes 300 days/year--which is essentially a hotel in a residentially-zoned neighborhood.

    These regs a good for the health of the town, but bad for the rich second homeowners, so there is usually a battle when such regs are promulgated/enacted, but case law is on the side of regulation. It's just zoning.

  18. #43
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    as stated before, Jackson/Teton County has those more or less exact air bnb/vrbo regs already in place except adjacent to the ski hills.
    StokePimpin' ain't easy

  19. #44
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    Are we talking 30 days/year or 30 days per visitor? No matter. They make as much in shorter rentals than long term rentals with less wear and tear(mostly). Plus owners can come stay at their property when they want if they plan it out.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by neufox47 View Post
    This. There isn’t any prefab design allowable in Jackson?

    As far as laws, see what California did for ADUs.
    it's the land
    we're surrounded by National park, natl elk refuge, forest. we're unique in that there's very little % of private land ownership in the region
    the land is so expensive so the price per sq foot is almost moot
    skid luxury

  21. #46
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    Woah, a Natty Dread post. High praise.

  22. #47
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    3% of the county land is private, and that includes the 100+ acre parcels.
    StokePimpin' ain't easy

  23. #48
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    Well FKNA. Kokomas the Op here and I floated the south fork of the Snake today with Schwerty. Had I known he started this I could have given him the lowdown on this. I sure don't know the answer but it's a part of my daily conservation...

    Consider: I've rented in JH for my 30 yrs here; I'd be psyched for some more viable housing.

    The highly contested property in town right now, is right next door to me. No nimby's in the neighborhood. Just a piss poor plan by an amateur planner in over her head. An all or nothing attitude from a mayor who feels pressure to do something, even if it's wrong. And a variety of better options.
    Teton county is 97% public land. Such a tiny fraction to be built on. Sprawl here is a red herring for keeping the supply side small. Try and sprawl out on 3% of your bed tonight. Zoning in the county is historically no subdividing of acreage to less than 35 acre lots. Keeps it rural was the rationale but really it keeps supply tight and only affordable by big money.

    A moratorium on mcmansions would help all but the dirt pimps and mercenary builders. We have enough 10k sq. ft. empty 4th homes here. Stop already. I've worked on many of them and it has afforded me a cool ski bum life but I would have preferred to build a community for people who truly value this place, not just the views and tax break.

    This town needs to move the Rodeo grounds, period. And annex a part of the refuge and nix the south park feedgrounds. Build on it with serious restrictions. Unlike the Wilson meadows debacle.

    Most desire for rental housing comes from the small business community that can't get workers for lack of a roof. Now we're building big apt. buildings in older well established neighborhoods for exactly which type of worker?


    I can't speak for other places but I feel Teton cty. has a handful of unique characteristics that make doing anything well, a genuine challenge. Being next to the Parks, for example. The handful of active local monopolists, another.

    Koko, you should go the Tiny house route. My friend owned the one across from the Apens, just sold it and built another for his daughter last month. Maybe easier than ya think. He and Lindenle toured the slog of death outta granite cyn. last spring...

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by b-bear View Post
    it's the land
    we're surrounded by National park, natl elk refuge, forest. we're unique in that there's very little % of private land ownership in the region
    the land is so expensive so the price per sq foot is almost moot
    I thought Koko was saying it will cost $500 / sqft to build a ADU on his existing land. Iím looking to build an ADU on my property here in Cali and we got SWAG quotes of $200-$350 for custom and $125-$250 for prefab.

  25. #50
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    From what I heard today, the rodeo grounds were deeded in perpetuity to only be that, rodeo (and fair) grounds.
    That would take a fair bit of legal wrangling, better call Jerry Spence!
    Kudos to the town for building the new units across the street, that will house a crapload of people.
    StokePimpin' ain't easy

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