The Official 19/20 Tahoe Ski Snowboard Thread. Plus bonus Bootfitting Recs!

**Robojerry** · 12-04-2019, 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by TahoeJ

Staffing issues or not, it simply takes more time to open the mountain after the first big dump then it does later in the season. They have to put in cat tracks, prep lift unload areas, mark cliffs, setup rope lines, etc. and typically a lot of these tasks aren't going to be performed by newly arriving J1's regardless.

Bingo. Thank you.

It takes WAY more work to schlepp materials out to a boundary and run a rope line at the beginning of the season than it does to send one or two people out to bump up and buff out a ropeline that’s already setup (for example). And 90% of hill safety work needs to be done on skis so work can’t even begin until there’s a usable snowpack. Considering it’s storming again today, the resorts have only had one real day to get to work on the upper mountain.

This work is happening as we speak though, have a bit of patience and it should be game on shortly.

**NathanL** · 12-04-2019, 04:39 PM

Yeah, building cat tracks, lift terminals, posting signs and the like is serious work, plus I'm sure they were constrained in what they could do for a couple days there because of the avalanche conditions. If they blasted heavily and things slid, that would be awful for the base.

**gone2alpine** · 12-04-2019, 09:34 PM

It's December 4th. I can patiently wait. Just about 8 days ago we were looking at bare dirt and rock with snow only where man put it. It's going to take them some time to ramp up.

After skiing some blue square terrain for a couple of hours, go visit your local boot fitter before they are totally swamped.

**powdork** · 12-05-2019, 12:34 AM

Pretty sure Kirkwood never opened the backside before mid December regardless of ownership or snowpack.

I don't care what's open. What they really need to work on now is a day of sunlight.

**hercule33** · 12-05-2019, 12:39 AM

Maybe I am getting old, but I remember the good old days when resorts tried to open as much terrain as early as possible. I find it hard to believe that if Kirkwood was fully staffed and had been running 5 and 11 before this storm (that means snowmaking in tough conditions), 6 & 10 would have popped during this storm and the backside would have opened a day or two later.

However the data probably shows that doing such a thing does not make much business sense. So I guess I will visit my bootfitter or even better yet hit Carson Pass backcountry.

**Ottime** · 12-05-2019, 09:43 AM

Dude. Chair 6 is spinning. If you can’t have fun on that lift, you are doing something wrong.

I 2nd what Powdork said above. In close to 20 years, I’ve never seen the backside open before mid December regardless of snowpack.

Staffing and customer base is the big decider. Can’t open until you are staffed and don’t want to staff u til you have customers. Mammy can pull it off because they have a large base of locals and LA filling in from the south. KW had a hard time creating a crowd mid winter bluebird non powders days. Pre Christmas, they are lucky if they get 500 skiers on the hill on a Saturday.

Not to mention it takes about a 80” base to fill the creek that you need to cross to get chair 4. Less than that, they need to build a snow bridge. Time and money.

Carson Pass is great for early season if you want more. Some super fun lines to ski, especially with a beginner base.

**NakedShorts** · 12-05-2019, 10:25 AM

2 weeks ago we had no snow. Then they got almost 2 feet of .05 snow. That packs down to about 3 or 4 inches at most. We were bouncing off the ground last Friday and it was sketchy. Then they were closed and being hammered with wet heavy snow. That second round was more like a first. Things should be good to go and as we get closer to the holiday and more and more terrain will open. This is a staffing = crowds issue now. Kirkwood will probably be first to be 100% open with the snow they have now. We just need to wait another week or 2.

**bodywhomper** · 12-05-2019, 01:08 PM

Doesn’t kirkwood usually need to weedwack some of the meadows on the backside and then receive additional snowfall on top of that before it’s skiable back there?

**hercule33** · 12-05-2019, 01:37 PM

I am just making some observations about a change in operations at Kirkwood. I remember Thanksgiving skiing at Kirkwood with much less snow with both 6 and 10 open. That was under Vail, but it looks like those days are gone.

And for the record, I can have fun just off 6 and I would trade early season opening dates for an extended season but that’s not the point. I get the business decision and I can see how Vail is struggling with Kirkwood because like Ottime pointed out it is boom or bust depending if it’s a powder day and Vail prefers a less volatile business model.

Still, I am a bit sad and disappointed at the way Kirkwood has been run this season. If Vail can’t make money off Kirkwood the same way it does it’s other resorts, I wish that they would operate it more like Silverton than Northstar. Focus on getting the terrain open and cut the number of lifts and amenities. This could go to extremes in the late spring.

**meter-man** · 12-05-2019, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by bodywhomper

Doesn’t kirkwood usually need to weedwack some of the meadows on the backside and then receive additional snowfall on top of that before it’s skiable back there?

After teh weed-whacking, I heard they have to do something with snow gnomes and altoid-hummers. Pretty sick stuff.

In other news...GOLD COAST is gonna pop on Friday at Squaw Valley USA. Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeew. Get sum!!

**powdork** · 12-05-2019, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by hercule33

Still, I am a bit sad and disappointed at the way Kirkwood has been run this season.

The season is 6 days old! One of those days the road was closed in both directions pretty much the entire day. They have top to bottom skiing. I'm guessing they would be opening 10 this weekend if it weren't for the storm. They never open the backside before about the 15th or even later and that seems likely again this year. I'm not sure what there is to complain about so far this year.

**hercule33** · 12-05-2019, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by powdork

The season is 6 days old!.

That’s exactly the problem. The Kirkwood season is 6 days old. Mt. Rose, the other high elevation ski resort in Tahoe that usually gets less snow than Kirkwood, has been open for much longer and from what I heard around here it has everything running except the chutes. You even posted some backcountry stoke for this season and last time I checked the backcountry doesn’t have snowmaking

.

**NakedShorts** · 12-05-2019, 02:51 PM

I'm not sure what there is to complain about so far this year.

^^^ Have to agree! They were trying to get 6 to pop last Saturday Pre-Storm. Sure we all love 2006 - 2007 or 2012-2013 seasons when Kirkwood opens and they give us the cornice on 6 from the start. 10 should pop any day now. Pretty standard opening based on conditions though. The first storm really didn't count because it was BLOWER! If anything your complaint should read " I cannot believe they opened on a pow day for those lucky fucks with EPIC passes and KWood Only." Country Club Living!

**reid** · 12-05-2019, 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by hercule33

I am just making some observations about a change in operations at Kirkwood. I remember Thanksgiving skiing at Kirkwood with much less snow with both 6 and 10 open. That was under Vail, but it looks like those days are gone.

And I think folks are just pointing out those aren't grounded in realistic expectations.

They've barely had the time to dig out to get anything open at all.

If they got a couple feet of snow a week before thanksgiving, of course that gave them plenty of time to get things open.

**mescalito** · 12-05-2019, 02:59 PM

Rose - all but chutes are open. Been remarkably good skiing for any time of year let alone first week of Dec.

**hercule33** · 12-05-2019, 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by reid

And I think folks are just pointing out those aren't grounded in realistic expectations.

They've barely had the time to dig out to get anything open at all.

First, there seem to be two opposing arguments. One is that Kirkwood doesn’t have enough snow to open the backside and that the base is much smaller than you might think because the first storm was blower. The other is that they got so much snow that they need a lot of time to dig out. 7 feet of Sierra cement is way different than digging out 2 or 3 feet of heavy snow which is way different than digging out blower. So which one is it?

I get that my expectations might not sound realistic until you look at what is happening at Mt. Rose and Mt. Rose is not run a multinational corporation with deep pockets. But what bugs me most about Vail is that they are using the whole “boil a frog” strategy with Kirkwood and even Tahoe as a whole. Each year the operations get a little worse, hoping that pass holders don’t notice. So no drastic changes from last year but if you look at huge effort that Vail put into opening Kirkwood during the four years of drought (even upgrading the snowmaking system) you will see a huge change in operations.

For the record, I would not be pissed about the changes if Vail was open about them instead of sneaking them in.

**reid** · 12-05-2019, 03:35 PM

Originally Posted by hercule33

First, there seem to be two opposing arguments. One is that Kirkwood doesn’t have enough snow to open the backside and that the base is much smaller than you might think because the first storm was blower. The other is that they got so much snow that they need a lot of time to dig out. 7 feet of Sierra cement is way different than digging out 2 or 3 feet of heavy snow which is way different than digging out blower. So which one is it?

I've only seen maybe one post claiming the blower pow is the problem.

I'd say it's the majority saying a massive snow dump of 100" over a week with almost no breaks == nobody having had time to dig out, set ropes, build cat tracks, etc. Things that are much, much harder to do at the beginning of the season than when the crap's already out there. You can't setup a ski hill with no snow.

There's definitely a "they could have had more staff" component to this, but most of it seems to be logistical rather than poor planning, let alone intentional.

But what bugs me most about Vail is that they are using the whole “boil a frog” strategy with Kirkwood and even Tahoe as a whole. Each year the operations get a little worse, hoping that pass holders don’t notice. So no drastic changes from last year but if you look at huge effort that Vail put into opening Kirkwood during the four years of drought (even upgrading the snowmaking system) you will see a huge change in operations.

For the record, I would not be pissed about the changes if Vail was open about them instead of sneaking them in.

Yeah, I think the thing is, your reaction seems pretty clearly based on this general negative opinion, rather than on the facts on the ground (so to speak).

I just don't know how anyone can pretend to make an objective comparison of how operations are changing over time with so few data points under Vail, dramatically different conditions each year; different snow falling in different rates at different places, and then to try to compare conditions at one mountain to another?

I don't even try to play the "I remember when..." game, because I know my memory isn't that good or that objective, and I certainly don't have inside insight into snowmaking operations and funding and staffing and optimum temps and conditions for snowmaking at this mountain on this week versus that mountain.

**optics** · 12-05-2019, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by hercule33

Still, I am a bit sad and disappointed at the way Kirkwood has been run this season.

DPPS?

**hercule33** · 12-05-2019, 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by reid

I've only seen maybe one post claiming the blower pow is the problem.

I'd say it's the majority saying a massive snow dump of 100" over a week with almost no breaks == nobody having had time to dig out, set ropes, build cat tracks, etc. Things that are much, much harder to do at the beginning of the season than when the crap's already out there. You can't setup a ski hill with no snow.

There's definitely a "they could have had more staff" component to this, but most of it seems to be logistical rather than poor planning, let alone intentional.

Yeah, I think the thing is, your reaction seems pretty clearly based on this general negative opinion, rather than on the facts on the ground (so to speak).

I just don't know how anyone can pretend to make an objective comparison of how operations are changing over time with so few data points under Vail, dramatically different conditions each year; different snow falling in different rates at different places, and then to try to compare conditions at one mountain to another?

I don't even try to play the "I remember when..." game, because I know my memory isn't that good or that objective, and I certainly don't have inside insight into snowmaking operations and funding and staffing and optimum temps and conditions for snowmaking at this mountain on this week versus that mountain.

I get your memory and facts argument and I do agree that it is not super reliable. It is anecdotal evidence and should be treated as such. And yes, with skiing there is never an apple to apple comparison and without access to Vail’s confidential information we can never really know what they are cutting. That being said, when taking a 30,000 foot view a few things are clear that are based on irrefutable facts.

1. Mt. Rose is running all lifts except the chutes. Website is reporting 91 inches of snowfall at the summit.
2. Sugar Bowl is running all 7 lifts and reporting up to 76 inches of snowfall.
3. According to its website Kirkwood is running 4 lifts and reporting 4% terrain open. Total snowfall reported for the season is 108” from the website.

Draw your own conclusions about Vail’s early operations of Kirkwood based on the facts.

**NakedShorts** · 12-05-2019, 04:04 PM

Kirkwood is under reporting open terrain just like Heavenly is over reporting open runs. If ya know...you know where to go!
Rose and Sugar bowl do not have to report to Wall Street. From what I have heard is KWood management is trying their hardest to run it in the Black so they can make a point to do the much needed upgrades.

**hercule33** · 12-05-2019, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by NakedShorts

Kirkwood is under reporting open terrain just like Heavenly is over reporting open runs. If ya know...you know where to go!

The conspiracy theorist in me is wondering if Vail is intentionally steering the casual skiers to Heavenly. Still, the fact remains that Vail is claiming only 4% terrain open on Kirkwood’s website which bodes very poorly compared to Rose and Sugar Bowl or even Heavenly. And for a big company like Vail, properly updating websites and social media is part of mountain operations.

**meter-man** · 12-05-2019, 04:12 PM

I 'member last year when KT was open the first week in December and didn't close until after Mem Day...June (right? was that a record?). I too wish the resorts opened wall-to-wall from first flake until last strip of corn, but...they don't.

BTW, Sugar Bowl does not have Disney or Judah open, and only really has the groomers off Lincoln open, per their website. Plus a bunch of groomers. So...I think Kirkwood actually has the most steep terrain open in Tahoe...unless Mt. Rose has more steep terrain than the Chutes (I'm Rose-ignorant). Alpine and Squaw still are lower mountain only and lots of closures there.

Hercules is sorta right but I think he just needs a few laps on Chair 6, and he'll be plenty happy and forget this ever happened. Me too - need me some laps.

**powdork** · 12-05-2019, 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by hercule33

The conspiracy theorist in me is wondering if Vail is intentionally steering the casual skiers to Heavenly. Still, the fact remains that Vail is claiming only 4% terrain open on Kirkwood’s website which bodes very poorly compared to Rose and Sugar Bowl or even Heavenly. And for a big company like Vail, properly updating websites and social media is part of mountain operations.

I don't think they do that, or that it would be a conspiracy if they did. Kirkwood's probably closer to 10% based on acreage but I don't know.

I never saw this last year. Is the resort acreage now all the way to the spur? So you can sometimes pass Jeff's line without going through a gate?
https://www.kirkwood.com/-/media/kir...18_ol_web.ashx

also: post 12345

**Ottime** · 12-05-2019, 05:07 PM

^^^ been a few years. It is basically a way to close the BC access on snow days without closing the BC Access. The old boundary is now an Inbounds avalanche control area that closes during storms. They also can close the ridge now, so you can get out of bounds. They even claim you need to cross a ten foot strip of closed terrain to access the boundary at the top of the sentinel groomer. So yeah, lots of bs with that. No argument that Vail sucks.

As for openings, Rose and SB are different beasts. Most of their lifts access terrain where there is at least access to intermediate groomers. It takes more snow to open a lift like 10 than anything at those two hills.

I already mentioned the deep ass creek bed you need to cross to get to the chair 4 corral.

The snowmaking system at KW was built in like 1593. It is old as fuck. Inefficient, slow and they need to pump water from Caples and they are only set up blowing on 4 runs. buckboard, Zachary, race course and hay flat. Not robust by any mean.

Sure, I’d though Vail would have invested in that to our snow by 7/9 at the very least. So yeah, no investment there.

To be fair, the high elevation valley often get stuck with an inversion as the air gets stuck in the valley. Rose does not have this same issue, as there is no valley floor to trap the air once the air begins to move. Often KW is just unable to make snow early season. IMO, it is kind of a waste of money outside drought years. Just wait for the first big storm and things will get going.

No lover of Vail here, but I don’t see this as a big issue.

And like I mentioned before, they actually have a closing date after April 16 for the first time Vail bought the place. I much rather them make no snow, and save that money to keep things running in spring. Doubt they’d do that, but it would be nice.

**TahoeBC** · 12-05-2019, 05:14 PM

Getting 6 open for the first time this season the day after there was zero access to kirkwood and a ridiculous amount of new storm snow seems as good as it gets.

In other south shore news Heavenly has been opening up new terrain each day. Upper mountain coverage has been excellent and it’s benefited from colder temps. Still getting very good untracked Pow turns which I’ve been happy as a clam with. Most of the upper mountain trees are open now with milky way and dipper trees popping today.

Rumor is stagecoach will open tomorrow. With coverage so good on upper Nevada I would think it would be easy to open California, unless they don’t want to spend the money yet, or they have not staffed up yet.

Couple shots from today

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk