The Official 19/20 Tahoe Ski Snowboard Thread. Plus bonus Bootfitting Recs!

[kidwoo]

I'm still in Telluride

Need a roomate?

[Derelicht]

I believe robojerry is referring to peaks like Split Mtn, in which the road to the trailhead requires AWD. Or at least 2wd with a very adept, very bold driver. That road itself is an adventure. And the hike up Split is no picnic either. Done it in the summer, I've been told it's one the better winter descents out there.

[kidwoo]

I believe robojerry is referring to peaks like Split Mtn, in which the road to the trailhead requires AWD. Or at least 2wd with a very adept, very bold driver. That road itself is an adventure. And the hike up Split is no picnic either. Done it in the summer, I've been told it's one the better winter descents out there.

Gotcha on the approaches. There are lots of ways to have things 'legal' but still have some sort of filtering effect like that. Old Goat's earlier comments about bikers not being able to ride 'where he hikes' kind of touches on it, even though I think he'd be surprised regarding what gets ridden in terms of distance and technicality by a pretty large portion of the population. But for sure it's still a bit of a weeder to a big portion.

[Robojerry]

As KW notes, there is not a single bike-legal trail anywhere in the vicinity of Ebbetts Pass, Sonora Pass, Tioga Pass, nothing out of Pine Creek, nada in the Bishop Creek drainages (well one trail...), nothing coming out of Big Pine Creek, nothing out of Onion Valley, nothing out of Whitney Portal, etc etc etc. That's the entire friggin range.

I honestly had no idea that this was the case. Like I implied, I don’t even own a bike. That is indeed pretty much the whole friggen range. Consider me edumacated.

And 4wd is slang for four wheel drive. Like derelict correctly guessed, Im referring to split. A bonafide classic 14er that to even begin your hike you have to bumble down miles of empty east side dirt road to a nondescript empty dead end marked by nothing but three burnt out cars. Then the 7500 feet of up uphilling through an empty canyon before you get to enjoy an empty summit surrounded by some of the most dramatic mountains in the lower 48. Back down to that empty trailhead you go, to enjoy beers in the empty desert with the only sight of any real civilization being the sight of Bishop way off in the distance.

That this sort of experience still exists in the most populous state in the US is, to me, part of what makes the Sierra so special. And it’s not just this one mountain, this sort of thing can be found all over the big Sierra as long as you stay away from Whitney portal, big pine creek, Sabrina, etc.

I’d be concerned about any change that jeopardizes the ability to have an experience like that. My only concern with the establishment of mtn biking trails in the high Sierra would be a major increase in impact, both through the need to build enjoyable trails full of features and the increase in use it would bring.

As a non-biker, just driving past the jackass trailhead on any given day of the week gives me pause.

I’ll definitely be more open minded after reading meter-man’s response, but it’s a slippery slope when it comes to easing wilderness restrictions.

Outside designated wilderness, you got my support.


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[kidwoo]

You say that the only 14er in California that you can get anywhere near in California is white mountain (which has a road all the way to the summit). To that, I completely disagree. Just takes a little more fortitude than your average Colorado classic.

I meant drive to within 14k elevation. Correct me if I'm wrong but that is absolutely true.

it’s a slippery slope when it comes to easing wilderness restrictions.

And 'slippery slope' arguments don't deal with the precise issues being discussed......and I'd say are a lazy way to just dismiss them.


No one realistic is expecting to change existing wilderness designations or change the way existing wilderness is managed. The shit show something like that would generate is nothing anyone thinks can be realistically redirected. But that reaction from the director of the PCTA is an example I used for a reason. This is a bill that only addresses FUTURE wilderness designations, yet she cages it like existing wilderness is going to be overrun with bikes on existing trails. "Gut the wilderness act" she says. A complete mischaractarization. But done deliberately to mislead for a desired reaction.

So in short: everywhere you've been in your life and associate with 'wilderness' wouldn't change. Just stop the endless march towards a future designation of lands to the most restrictive imaginable, especially when the initial intent of the wilderness act itself was to curb resource extraction and development, not necessarily limit the ways in which the public could enjoy it.

That buttermilk road up towards humphreys is getting similar to the road to split. My truck cried last time I drove up that thing last year. And I agree. We still have some fun adventures in this state. If we could just get the instagram heros and guide book narcissists to just shut the fuck up.......

[Robojerry]

I meant drive to within 14k elevation. Correct me if I'm wrong but that is absolutely true.



And 'slippery slope' arguments don't deal with the precise issues being discussed......and I'd say are a lazy way to just dismiss them.


No one realistic is expecting to change existing wilderness designations or change the way existing wilderness is managed. The shit show something like that would generate is nothing anyone thinks can be realistically redirected. But that reaction from the director of the PCTA is an example I used for a reason. This is a bill that only addresses FUTURE wilderness designations, yet she cages it like existing wilderness is going to be overrun with bikes on existing trails. "Gut the wilderness act" she says. A complete mischaractarization. But done deliberately to mislead for a desired reaction.

So in short: everywhere you've been in your life and associate with 'wilderness' wouldn't change. Just stop the endless march towards a future designation of lands to the most restrictive imaginable, especially when the initial intent of the wilderness act itself was to curb resource extraction and development, not necessarily limit the ways in which the public could enjoy it.

That buttermilk road up towards humphreys is getting similar to the road to split. My truck cried last time I drove up that thing last year. And I agree. We still have some fun adventures in this state. If we could just get the instagram heros and guide book narcissists to just shut the fuck up.......

I think there’s only three places in the entire continental US that you can drive to 14k (white, Evans, pikes), unless I’m mistaken.

I think a lot of non-mtb biking users of the backcountry (both wilderness and non) get concerned when they see both the number of people and the range of demographics that are getting into mountain biking. It’s seems crazy just how popular it’s become in such a short amount of time.

I mentioned the jackass trailhead for a reason. We see images of our favorite places being overrun by loud groups of neon-clad overweight tourists on ebikes. That’s what I see every time I drive through that stop light.

I’m a total curmudgeon. I’ll be the first to admit it. I believe that the mountains should be accessible to everyone. I just want some of them to be hard to access so that they aren’t just accessible to anyone. But that’s just because I hate people, which I understand is a me issue.

I understand your’s and other’s points about the Sierra being big enough for the both of us. And I suppose I do see a way that we can continue to grow the world class biking opportunities without jeopardizing the solitude of grumpy climbers like myself.

Thanks for the edumacation. In what may be a first for a tgr poster, I’ve read something on here that has caused me to have a slight change in perspective.



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[kidwoo]

I’m a total curmudgeon. I’ll be the first to admit it. I believe that the mountains should be accessible to everyone. I just want some of them to be hard to access so that they aren’t just accessible to anyone. But that’s just because I hate people, which I understand is a me issue.

Shit, we brothers yo!

I've been riding mountainbikes for 27 years. I just bought a dirtbike to get away from mountainbikers this year.

We have a lot more in common than you might think. Even though we might get to similar views using different means.

The 14k thing was just an example I was using. There are a few more in the US (and even in CO) than you listed accessible to uses other than hiking but that's not the larger point I was trying to make. We have some high elevation terrain like other states but you can only legally access them one of two ways. That's all I was getting at. So for a lot of users there's an experience that could be provided here, but instead us residents drive hundreds, or a thousand miles to other states for it. Dirtbikes, snowmobiles and even passenger cars get banned from uses partly because of the internal combustion engine 'contribuiting to climate change'. Driving hundreds of miles to go do that somewhere else kind of negates that. Just something to think about. Especially when the use itself contributes far less than a road trip or an airpline ride.

At this point, jackass serves one purpose: to place the jackasses. I'm an asshole so that's how I look at it. Clusterfuck well acknowledged. That's also an 'illegal' trail, referenced earlier when we just keep banning things. The use doesn't go away, it just goes underground or somewhere else.

We also allow a far greater clusterfuck in what was supposed to be some of our most cherished real estate....the nat parks. Which was the idea for conservation long before the wilderness act.

I just see some real problems on the horizon, related to overcrowding in recreation places, uncontrollable campfires destroying people's homes....etcetera etcetera. I've just noticed some reasons driving that lately as I get old and start looking at why certain uses end up where they do.

-end summer musings

[Robojerry]

Case in point: https://time.com/5869788/national-parks-covid-19/

This could just as easily have been about the east shore of Tahoe. To me, the saving grace of our national parks is how empty it all of a sudden feels if you're willing to walk even 10 minutes uphill away from the roads.

But I do believe it was the great John Muir that once said "man wouldn't this valley look great through a windshield.”

End summer musings for me as well. That glorious season we call fall is just around the corner.

[TahoeJ]

Lol... I still haven’t ridden jackass / yogis even once this year and i can get there in 5-7 minutes. I counted over 50 cars there on 89 the other day. Hard pass. Plenty of uncrowded options if you avoid the obvious stuff.

In general I’m with kid woo, people think the Rockies in CO are so much bigger than the Sierra because of the difference in access. You really have to earn it to get anywhere out here. It’s a little ridiculous. The east side should be a MTB paradise.

[old goat]

Are you sure it wouldn't count toward local cases? Placer has 53 covid cases in the hospital. only 23 are from Placer county. Just curious.

I don't know what's going on in Placer County. Most cases are in the heavily populated western country--Roseville and Rocklin being the biggest population centers. Some of the cases hospitalized in Placer may be from Sacramento County, but I don't know that for sure. Many people in eastern Sacramento Country get their medical care at Sutter Roseville and Kaiser Roseville.

Re graffiti--seen in a couple of places in Shirley Canyon for the first time this year (unless you count the trail blazes painted on the rocks.)

[kidwoo]

I don't know what's going on in Placer County. Most cases are in the heavily populated western country--Roseville and Rocklin being the biggest population centers. Some of the cases hospitalized in Placer may be from Sacramento County, but I don't know that for sure. Many people in eastern Sacramento Country get their medical care at Sutter Roseville and Kaiser Roseville.

Kind of drives me nuts how the county lines drawn primarily for water drainage boundaries and travel corridors don't break down statistics better in terms of WHERE the hospitalizations and even deaths are occurring.

Y'all want to secede? Truckee/Tahoe city/Kings Beach have a lot more to do with each other than Tahoe City and Roseville. We could create the county of bro. Although that's kind of sexist. We can work on the name.

[old goat]

Kind of drives me nuts how the county lines drawn primarily for water drainage boundaries and travel corridors don't break down statistics better in terms of WHERE the hospitalizations and even deaths are occurring.

Y'all want to secede? Truckee/Tahoe city/Kings Beach have a lot more to do with each other than Tahoe City and Roseville. We could create the county of bro. Although that's kind of sexist. We can work on the name.

That's been something I've been yakking about for years and will still be yakking about when I die. Truckee and North Tahoe should be its own county, likewise South Lake Tahoe--or maybe South Tahoe can join up with Alpine. I wouldn't put South Lake with North Lake because in the winter you can't drive from one to the other without going through another state.

[bodywhomper]

Trail riding .... what about the ranges East of the east side? Like the whites and the inyos? Total spitball.

[TahoeJ]

I feel like the incorporate Olympic Valley effort may have had more success with the “North Tahoe County” approach, but on the other hand it’s much harder to create a new county than a city. The more money that flows into the area could be a good thing in this regard, however.

[old goat]

I feel like the incorporate Olympic Valley effort may have had more success with the “North Tahoe County” approach, but on the other hand it’s much harder to create a new county than a city. The more money that flows into the area could be a good thing in this regard, however.

Pretty much impossible I'm afraid. The county that the new county is leaving has to agree, I believe. I don't see Placer or Nevada Counties letting go of the Tahoe Truckee cash cow.

[TahoeJ]

Pretty much impossible I'm afraid. The county that the new county is leaving has to agree, I believe. I don't see Placer or Nevada Counties letting go of the Tahoe Truckee cash cow.

Exactly. I’m fully aware of the process. That’s why I suggested real money / influence is the only way.

[~mikey b]

a foothill river spot I know of with 12 legal parking spots had 313 cars last weekend

[teledad]

Jackass is legal now FWIW: https://www.truckeetrails.org/trails/a1-jackass-trail/

The mob scene there (and on the main trail in Downieville) points out another issue: you can build trails but that won't necessarily solve the crowding issue. Jackass is popular because it's close to Truckee, close to the road, and doesn't require much climbing (and has kiddie jumps). Head to trails that require more climbing or are further away and people start to disappear even if it's an easy fire road climb. People like Downieville because they can shuttle a big downhill, and 90+% stick to the standard route and never even bother trying Big Boulder or Pauley Creek (or even Second Divide). Build a high alpine trail in a remote area that requires 6000 feet of climbing topping out at 12K and it will give kidwoo (and maybe me) somewhere to ride - but unless it's somewhere you can run a shuttle service and open a brewpub at the bottom it probably won't help the crowding in Tahoe.

Same thing with backcountry skiing (to broaden beyond Sprockets talk) - there's plenty of places to ski with no one else around if you're willing to cover some miles to get there. But people like easy laps so they hit Jake's and Hourglass over and over, and Lake Run to avoid skinning at all.

[TahoeJ]

Pretty sure Yogis is legal now too after that lower re-route a few years ago: Worst kept secret in Truckee. Gonna be worse when those cold stream apartments open.

Whatever, let the masses have it, plenty of quiet options right nearby.

Edited. You’re right meter-man, my bad. Most of the new trails going in “back there” are authorized however, so that’s good. Unless you meant yogis, etc. (I don’t think you did?) I mean, they were featured in multiple bike magazines in the last few years, which is when they really blew up.

[meter-man]

The upper trails are not authorized, and you should delete reference to it/them, as it is located on private land. The landowner allows access, but can take it away anytime, especially if people publicize it. Please delete.

[old goat]

a foothill river spot I know of with 12 legal parking spots had 313 cars last weekend

I guess it's not exactly a secret. https://www.sacbee.com/news/local/ar...hpdigest_local
I don't expect any of this crowding to go away after the pandemic does. There are 40,000,000 people in California.

[climberevan]

I guess it's not exactly a secret. https://www.sacbee.com/news/local/ar...hpdigest_local
I don't expect any of this crowding to go away after the pandemic does. There are 40,000,000 people in California.

Paywall.

I haven't been to Truckee or the N shore in months (I rarely find that area attractive anyway, but since it's hot down here in the Carson Valley, I've been going to/through Hope Valley a bit to ride. The profusion of campers and hikers is absolutely shocking. All side roads along Blue Lakes road look like RV parks, except without bathrooms. It's a shit-show, literally.

The parking lots atop Carson Pass were full yesterday at 1100, with approx 50% more cars on the shoulder in both directions. Honestly, I'm all for people enjoying the outdoors, but if it's going to continue like this, I'll have to decamp for somewhere farther from major population centers.

The land simply can't take this much traffic without suffering, especially without a commensurate increase in trail building and maintenance and some enforcement of the rules. Since we have neither, it's just being trashed.

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[powdork]

^^I rode Armstrong Pass yesterday. It's no longer a single track for most of the way.

[gimpy]

since we are talking bike trails...... what is the deal with ebikes on the rim trail? are they allowed, or not allowed?

[TahoeJ]

Not allowed. But I sure see a lot. Oh well, doesn’t really bother me.