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  1. #1326
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    Dire commodity supply warnings rarely pan out. Nothing cures high prices like high prices.

  2. #1327
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdironRider View Post
    You clearly have not rented a car recently. Yeah let’s add several hours, unnecessary miles driven, and a minimum hundred bucks to the cost every time I want to tow my boat.
    Why do you need to tow a boat?

    Are you using it for commercial fishing?

    If the use is for pleasure, well that is a want as opposed to a need. You are not entitled to having things cost what you want.
    "Have you ever seen a monk get wildly fucked by a bunch of teenage girls?" "No" "Then forget the monastery."


    "You ever hear of a little show called branded? Arthur Digby Sellers wrote 156 episodes. Not exactly a lightweight." Walter Sobcheck.

    "I didn't have a grandfather on the board of some fancy college. Key word being was. Did he touch the Filipino exchange student? Did he not touch the Filipino exchange student? I don't know Brooke, I wasn't there."

  3. #1328
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    Quote Originally Posted by altasnob View Post
    free market economy
    Along those lines, the other side of the equation is the fossil fuel industry is directly subsidized by Uncle Sam (aka the taxpayers) to the tune of 20 billion dollars. When you include indirect subsidies/externalities that number jumps to over 600 billion.

    Americans burn too much petroleum because it's too cheap. Get big government out of oil! Let the invisible hand of the market decide!

  4. #1329
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mustonen View Post
    Per miles driven doesn’t really make sense to me since it doesn’t capture the benefit derived by having good roads available in the (maybe rare) case that you need them, in addition to emergency services, utilities, freight, etc. Just cuz I don’t go anywhere doesn’t mean that roads aren’t critical to my every day.
    But the person in the city who doesn't drive and relies on transit and ride shares to get around would still be paying their fair share. The gas tax applies to all consumers, even government, and there is no reason a per mile driven tax shouldn't either. The tax for the non-driver would be built into the price they pay for the bus, for uber, for the goods they purchase, for a ride to the ER, ect.

    Also, the current gas taxes do not pay for 100% of road maintenance. A per miles driven tax wouldn't either. So we would all still be paying for road maintenance, even if we don't own a car.

    The only free loaders would be the bicyclists. But is it really a problem that we would be subsidizing bike riding over vehicle travel?

  5. #1330
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    Quote Originally Posted by frorider View Post
    It’s a mystery to me why anyone who has some pro-business tendencies would want the US to consciously surrender to China.
    Ok, where do we draw the line? Forcing electric vehicles on the public is ok. Should we force solar on all new construction? Should we ban natural gas and force people to heat exclusively with electric? Should we force people to move from places like South Lake Tahoe, where their overall carbon footprint is greater than in dense cities, to move to dense cities?

  6. #1331
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    For at least long haul trucks, there’s anticipation by at least Shell Oil that the change in tech will be staged. Next stage is “renewable natural gas” from cow shit. Shell is throwing money at this technology, while the larger equipment industry advances no emissions tech that will functionally work for long haul trucks and similar equipment. Not sure about petroleum industry plan for those next phases.

  7. #1332
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4matic View Post
    Dire commodity supply warnings rarely pan out. Nothing cures high prices like high prices.
    I'll take that bet Mr Simon!

    That pic of your hood with all the trucks... wow. The burbs around my town are similar, but the moms drive 4runners.

  8. #1333
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    I'm not even sure why this is such a hot debate any more. I'll distill my previous post into something simpler. When it comes to EVs there used to be a long list of legitimate negatives that outweighed the positives. Now that the list of pros now outweighs the shrinking list of cons, I have changed my stance on them. Don't get me wrong. I've always been a fan of the idea knowing the history of cars and was always pissed when GM killed off the EV1. (Anybody else remember the documentary "Who Killed the Electric Car?" ?) However, I also recognized the tech just wasn't there yet. That's since changed.

    Still a LONG way to go, but I think we can now legitimately say it's here to stay and for the most part, it's a net positive change. IMO, the next biggest hurdles we need to address (and NOW) is the sourcing of battery materials and of course improving our electrical infrastructure and power generation. I know the poorly-named "Inflation Reduction Act" actually aims to address the sourcing of the materials, encouraging domestic production, but it actually doesn't go nearly far enough. At least it does something though.

    When power and mining for battery materials are firmly tackled though, that will take away even more arguments against EVs. We should ALL be unified in the sourcing of the materials, as this doesn't just effect EVs, but in cell phones, computers, and pretty much all our consumer electronics. It's appalling what's going on in that realm, but I digress.

  9. #1334
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    Quote Originally Posted by MontuckyFried View Post
    Anybody else remember the documentary "Who Killed the Electric Car?" ?
    Yep. GM made the chick from Baywatch cry. Unforgivable in my book.

  10. #1335
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    Free markets and libertarianism are such naïve and outdated concepts.

  11. #1336
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    The math is interesting. My kWh just jumped from 14 to almost 22

    But with all the other charges I’m at 38 cents kWh.
    Look at your bill and break out the calculator. The electric cost is only part of it.

    I could see buying a hybrid someday. Local electric and long range gas. Smaller battery and less weight. More convenient.

  12. #1337
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    Quote Originally Posted by Core Shot View Post
    The math is interesting. My kWh just jumped from 14 to almost 22

    But with all the other charges I’m at 38 cents kWh.
    Look at your bill and break out the calculator. The electric cost is only part of it.

    I could see buying a hybrid someday. Local electric and long range gas. Smaller battery and less weight. More convenient.
    I know I'm just going to regret asking this, but do you know what your marginal cost is for a kWh?
    A woman came up to me and said "I'd like to poison your mind
    with wrong ideas that appeal to you, though I am not unkind."

  13. #1338
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    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    I know I'm just going to regret asking this, but do you know what your marginal cost is for a kWh?
    I could back out the flat rate fees. Sure. There’s an $8.58 customer fee. Everything else is per kWh.

    And there’s no tiers or night rates.

  14. #1339
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdironRider View Post
    Asking the average American to have two vehicles so they can accommodate their need to travel more than 50 miles is a non-starter financially. We've already covered this..
    Talk about ignoring facts. Virtually every single EV gets way over 50 miles of range in the worst circumstances. Also, the average household already has 1.88 cars. As others have pointed out EVs are already almost as cheap to buy as ice cars. Looking at the average is just stupid because most / many are luxury super cars.

  15. #1340
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    Interesting thread if you can skip thru the chatter!

    I've got a fleet of 8 cargo vans for my plumbing business and spend nearly $8k a month in fuel. We are usually towing ~7k lb trailers with specialized equipment, sometimes long distances. Daily mileage for each van ranges from 50 to 500+ miles.

    Right now EV obviously just isn't there for our use case, but I look forward to the day it is!

    Sent from my SM-S908U using TGR Forums mobile app

  16. #1341
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    Similar here. Cargo van based biz.
    Not as many miles, but fuck, how do they charge? Employees take van home. Do I pay them to charge mid day?
    Do they need to buy another car to commute to the shop where the van is plugged in?

    Cafe standards made this mess. Heavy vehicles were made exempt so soccer moms bought f150 or suburbans.

    gas is going to be taxed to force ev.
    How’s that affecting biz that needs vans? Someone has to pay.

    How’s that $20 wage affecting your Starbucks and Big Mac?
    Trickle up? Or trickle down on your shoe?

    Not to mention cargo vans are now $40k. Limping and repairing an aging fleet. This is fubar already.

  17. #1342
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dshack89 View Post
    Interesting thread if you can skip thru the chatter!

    I've got a fleet of 8 cargo vans for my plumbing business and spend nearly $8k a month in fuel. We are usually towing ~7k lb trailers with specialized equipment, sometimes long distances. Daily mileage for each van ranges from 50 to 500+ miles.

    Right now EV obviously just isn't there for our use case, but I look forward to the day it is!

    Sent from my SM-S908U using TGR Forums mobile app
    I’d guess the first step would be getting one or two out of eight that don’t tow and handle the 50-100 mile days if the logistics allow you to interchange them based on distance and towing need.


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

  18. #1343
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    Anyone actually driven either the Ioniq 5 or the EV6?

    I was a phone call away from purchasing one of the two, when the dealer tried to invoke a bidding war.

    Curious how they handle snow with a decent snowflake tire.

  19. #1344
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    Quote Originally Posted by Core Shot View Post
    Similar here. Cargo van based biz.
    Not as many miles, but fuck, how do they charge? Employees take van home. Do I pay them to charge mid day?
    If you have guys that you trust to stick with you I'd look at covering the cost a charger install and their charging. Payoff would take a few years, but you'd get there and have happier employees.

    Quote Originally Posted by neufox47 View Post
    I’d guess the first step would be getting one or two out of eight that don’t tow and handle the 50-100 mile days if the logistics allow you to interchange them based on distance and towing need.
    This is where I'm at. I have six Transits of different configurations. I'm hoping to transition one or two to Transit EV's and continue to update the fleet as range improves on vans.

    Quote Originally Posted by lowsparkco View Post
    Anyone actually driven either the Ioniq 5 or the EV6?

    I was a phone call away from purchasing one of the two, when the dealer tried to invoke a bidding war.

    Curious how they handle snow with a decent snowflake tire.
    I think Beaver has a Ioniq 5 up in Canuckland

  20. #1345
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    I am REALLY liking what I'm seeing from the new Kia EV6 GT, however I have one big beef. Not with the car, but rather with the marketing. Why TF are they calling it a "crossover" when it it clearly a great looking EV hot hatch?! An EV hot hatch is awesome! That's what I want! But the fake CUV labelling is out of control. But then again, the marketing departments clearly know what sells, so I'll give 'em that. Still annoyed though. Whatever... I still want one. Haha.

    Tested: The 2023 Kia EV6 GT Scrambles Brand Perceptions
    https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...y-the-numbers/

  21. #1346
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    Quote Originally Posted by Core Shot View Post
    Similar here. Cargo van based biz.
    Not as many miles, but fuck, how do they charge? Employees take van home. Do I pay them to charge mid day?
    Do they need to buy another car to commute to the shop where the van is plugged in?

    Cafe standards made this mess. Heavy vehicles were made exempt so soccer moms bought f150 or suburbans.

    gas is going to be taxed to force ev.
    How’s that affecting biz that needs vans? Someone has to pay.

    How’s that $20 wage affecting your Starbucks and Big Mac?
    Trickle up? Or trickle down on your shoe?

    Not to mention cargo vans are now $40k. Limping and repairing an aging fleet. This is fubar already.
    Preach it! I hadn't thought of the overnight charging at home issue yet, my techs take their vans home too. Seems like what we need is a replaceable battery system where you can swap out like a power tool. I imagine a world in which my techs roll up to a "gas station" for a battery swap and I pay per battery cycle. Would be far from perfect, but at least solves some of the issues.

    It's been very interesting to see inflation work its way thru my business. I've had to do a series of price increases and my customers haven't really flinched. It helps that we only do emergency "essential" services (drain cleaning). But at some point things can't just keep going up without some real consequences.

    I paid $30k out the door for a brand new chevy express van in November 2020. I've been trying to order another one for 18 months with no luck, despite the local Chevy dealer being my neighbor and buddy. Hard to stomach paying $55k for a Ram Promaster or Sprinter that is just a basic white box but I may have to do that soon.

    Sent from my SM-S908U using TGR Forums mobile app

  22. #1347
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dshack89 View Post
    I paid $30k out the door for a brand new chevy express van in November 2020. I've been trying to order another one for 18 months with no luck, despite the local Chevy dealer being my neighbor and buddy. Hard to stomach paying $55k for a Ram Promaster or Sprinter that is just a basic white box but I may have to do that soon.
    Years ago, I gave up on finding a Ford/Chevy work truck or van as well. Found Mercedes MUCH easier to work with so worth checking out. Plus, with Daimler's Zero TRAC lease program, the math super works out. You get to basically write all of it off cuz they're "lease payments", then at the end, they "sell" it to you for $1. Check into it and you'll see what I'm saying. I really liked working with them over the worthless Ford & Chevy dealers I talked to.

    That said, anybody know if these eSprinter vans are any good?
    https://www.vans.mercedes-benz.com/v...nter-panel-van

  23. #1348
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    3.2 60mph in a Kia?

    And it’s a wagon? Fkna that might push me to electrify

    Sprinter vans are nice. Never added them since we short trips and they dropped gas for diesel only.

    The e sprinter is 95 to 200 miles depending on battery. Load it heavy and then what.
    They show an ambulance version on the page. I don’t want no stinking embulance. Let them run fuel. Lives are at stake. No ev fire trucks please also.

  24. #1349
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    Quote Originally Posted by MontuckyFried View Post
    I am REALLY liking what I'm seeing from the new Kia EV6 GT...

    Tested: The 2023 Kia EV6 GT Scrambles Brand Perceptions
    https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...y-the-numbers/
    800v DCFC charging stations are still somewhat limited. AFAIK, there's only one in my town (with 2 cables). And it's always full on weekends. If you had to charge that car on 400v obviously the time would be double (so about the same time it takes for most current EVs). Home charging would still be L2.

  25. #1350
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    Friend in MX is looking for a PHEV in MX to only be used in MX. awd and higher clearance. Prefers compacts. Suggestions?

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