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  1. #151
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    Did you do anything to the seats? I test drove a bolt and the lack of lumbar support hurt in 10 minutes. I liked the car otherwise and you can get on for $20kish here. Waiting for egos deals and might go that way for the right price.

    Quote Originally Posted by adrenalated View Post
    OK, I have a little over 5k miles on my 2019 Chevrolet Bolt now so can share some more thoughts on the actual car and EVs in general.

    First off, after driving an EV daily for a few months, I can confidently say that more people should be driving EVs. Ignoring the environmental arguments entirely, they are legitimately better for the majority of driving that most people do.

    -they are much quieter and more pleasant than an ICE car. Unlike an ICE car, there is zero vibration, which you never realized was annoying until it's gone.

    -one pedal driving is the shit in traffic or in the city. You have no idea how annoying it is to jump between the gas and brake, until you don't have to anymore. This coming from someone that grew up racing and LOVES manual transmission cars on a twisty mountain road. I've always conceded that auto transmissions were better than manual for stop and go driving but one pedal EV driving is a whole 'nother level of better.
    I'll note that it's technically possible to have one pedal driving on an ICE car through electronics but I'm not aware of any that do
    I'll also note that you definitely want to turn one pedal mode OFF when driving in the snow


    -no throttle lag, ever. I didn't realize how much lag there actually is in even a normally aspirated, manual transmission ICE car until I jumped in the EV. You touch the throttle, you get power instantly. And speaking of power...

    -generally speaking, EVs punch way above their class in terms of power, particularly torque, which in practical terms means your ability to accelerate. I'm not saying that my Bolt compares favorably to a Camero. I'm saying when you compare it to other vehicles in the same class - affordable compact hatchbacks - it's way more powerful, and in a way that's actually useful, like making a move into the left lane on a congested freeway or to make a pass on a two lane highway.

    -you start every morning fully fueled, meaning you never have to go to the gas station to make it to work when you're already late. "Man I really wish I spent more time at the gas station" - said no one ever. Plugging in every evening and unplugging every morning quickly becomes habit and takes 10 seconds to do.

    -heaters blow hot right away without waiting for anything to warm up, and every EV has remote start because you want to be able to warm up the vehicle while still connected to shore power

    So what's the downside? Charging infrastructure for long trips, and choice of models. I don't think cost because for most people that can afford to buy a new car anyway, once you factor in the tax credits, discounts/actual selling price offered by the manufacturer, and compare the creature comforts and features apples to apples, drastically reduced maintenance costs, and reduced fuel costs, EVs really aren't much different in terms of actual price than comparable ICE cars. I think that's particularly true because most people think they need much more range than they actually do, which I'll get to in a bit.

    Charging infrastructure for long trips: this is still a thing, and one that's unlikely to be solved in the short term without a massive investment in infrastructure by our government. There's just not enough chargers in not enough places, right now. It's not impossible to do long trips but the best solution right now is to still own an ICE car. Most households with more than one person also own more than one vehicle so other than needing to get over the idea of "my car" and "her car" this problem is already solved. Daily driving I commute 100mi in the EV and my wife commutes 7mi in the Forester. If I'm going skiing without her, I drive the Forester and she drives the Bolt. If we're going somewhere for the weekend we take the gas guzzling Lifted Tundra Camper, which is a luxury - we could easily manage with just the Bolt and the Forester.

    Choice of models: improving, but there's still only a handful of choices, and I get that. Again I think people need to think about what they ACTUALLY need. You don't need two big ass SUVs to ferry the kids around unless you're Morman and have like 10 kids. You need one, which can be your ICE car. You use that when you actually need the space. Your other car can and should be a smaller EV, that's what you drive when you have 3-4 people and not a ton of stuff. My brother-in-law has 4 kids and owns a 3-row SUV and honestly he could easily run a Bolt or a Leaf for his family's second car. A FWD EV is also much better in the snow than a FWD ICE car due to the weight and weight distribution, making AWD/4WD much less important.

    Range: I think most people think they need much more range than they actually do. Yes, things like driving at highway speed, cold weather, snow tires, etc. will negatively affect the actual range. But that's fine because you probably don't actually drive that much. I drive 100mi every day, sometimes up to 130ish if I detour out to go mountain biking or to an event after work. My real world range on the Bolt has been somewhere around 185mi for the way I drive, my commute, and the weather this winter. I average 3.0mi/kWh. I've just never had an issue coming close to running out of battery and I bet I drive more than the vast majority of people daily. Again, you have to remember that you're starting every day fully fueled. For most people, a lower range, cheaper EV like the Nissan Leaf, VW e-Golf, Hyundai Ioniq, or even Mini Cooper SE would be totally fine and you can buy one of those for probably $20-25k. If you do drive as much as me, the Chevy Bolt, Nissan Leaf Plus, Hyundai Kona EV, Kia Niro EV, or base model Tesla are great options.

    OK, so the actual car itself.

    Pros:
    -all the EV things above
    -it's spacious and has plenty of cargo space for a daily driver. 4 adults fit comfortably even really tall people
    -the tech features are great for a vehicle priced as it is. Android Auto on the big touchscreen is great, and all the controls are well laid out and intuitive with a good combination of touchscreen/electronic menus and physical buttons. A few things are done differently than traditional cars but generally better (for example, the climate control)
    -this is subjective, but I like the appearance of and quality of the interior finishes.
    -sound system is good for a stock system, although I'll probably replace speakers at some point (which is normal for me)

    Cons:
    -it's kinda ugly from the outside, too egg shaped and tall. Again, subjective
    -too tall. I'm 5'9" and with the seat dropped as low as it goes I have like 8" of space above my head. I get that I'm not tall but the roof is excessively high
    -the seating position is too high for my tastes and the steering wheel doesn't telescope out far enough. Again preference, but you sit in the Bolt more like an SUV than a car.
    -the suspension is too soft. Punching the throttle with any steering input gives you a disturbing amount of torque steer and the front end wants to wander instead of staying planted.
    -I have the LT trim with all the packages and the driver aids are somewhat underwhelming, especially compared to how good ProPilot is in the Nissan Leaf. Everything works fine, but this car really should have adaptive cruise control at a minimum. It also really should offer power seats as an option.

    All in all the Bolt is a great car and they are readily available and Chevy dealers are practically giving them away.

  2. #152
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    I just drove a fully loaded Tesla Model 3 sport around the San Mateo mountains and car is the bomb. Quiet (cabin is quiet too), powerful, excellent handling, good ride for 20 inch rims. The only negative I found was wind noise through the roof but I drive S-Class so I'm spoiled in that respect.

    Also, when I was driving i mentioned that the car felt a lot like a Mercedes. Mercedes did own 10% of Tesla and a lot of the parts are sourced from Mercedes

    "I am picking up my new P85D tomorrow! I know from reading this forum that a number of components in the Model-S come from Mercedes or their suppliers. I believe they include:

    - The "transmission" shift stalk
    - The indicator stalk
    - Cruise control stalk
    - The steering wheel
    - The air suspension (if fitted)
    - The door window controls."
    Last edited by 4matic; 02-01-2020 at 07:40 PM.

  3. #153
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    I drive a Subaru 2016 Impreza manual trans 38 - 45 miles RT about 5+ days a week which adds up to an average amount, maybe 12,000 miles annualy. I bet 10k miles are these short trips and 2k miles are longer drives. It's a good car, I like it, it's good for going skiing, but I don't drive it to the mountains that much in winter. We have a Forester which we prefer for skiing 90% of the time. The resale on the Impreza seems decent at the moment. I'm getting tired of burning gas for all of this city/highway/lowland/traffic/commute driving where its not necessary. It's just starting to feel stupid. I love going places and don't like spewing shit into the air when there are legitimately good alternatives. I would also like some QOL improvements for commuting that are more common with EVs like a quiet ride, no shifting, and adaptive cruise control.

    I'm thinking about a 2017 Chevy Volt for these reasons:

    -The used prices are pretty cheap, like $20k with every option including adaptive cruise control. When I factor in the low cost to drive, I think I would actually save money compared to my Impreza. I like the idea of getting something that has depreciated a lot already.
    While I love AWD, I don't really need it on my commute car 99% of the time.
    -I like the overall size/length of the Volt, seems very similar to the Impreza which I find ideal. People seem to say it handles well.
    The back seats are small, but this car will have 1-2 passengers 90% of the time.
    -People who have owned this car generally seem to like and it the battery range does not seem to diminish too much.
    -There is no sales tax on this car if purchased used in WA state
    -While the all electric range is not huge at 53 miles, I think that I would still be able to drive about 90% of the miles on this car electric only just because I do so many trips in that range. I honestly think it is just enough. I do still need to be able to occasionally drive the car further without range anxiety and don't want to be stopping to charge on the side of the highway at this point. A 200+ mile EV would probably be fine, but outside of the Bolt those seem much more expensive at this time.
    -The Bolt does not have Adaptive Cruise Control. I have to creep along in highway traffic several times a week and it sort of makes me crazy. I want it to be more tolerable.

    Feel free to make other suggestions or convince me otherwise! This area is filled with Tesla nuts. I'm sure the Model 3 is amazing, but I just don't want to sink that much money into a car that is for utility. I would much prefer to get something already used and not worry about every tiny scratch and ding. I'm sure the Volvo XC40 Recharge and other forthcoming AWD EVs will be great, but I don't want to be an early adopter, don't want the steep depreciation curve on a new/expensive car, and other than the Tesla none of them are really out yet. The Rav4 Prime will probably be very good (I rode in the hybrid and liked it) but it's not out yet, the electric range is not quite as much as the Volt, it will be more expensive, and I want a compact car for commuting.

    I think a 2018 Nissan Leaf has adaptive cruise, I could consider that. Range is a little shortish, and the car looks smaller/less substantial overall. I do a lot of highway driving on horrible pavement and am less psyched on that car for some reason. I wish that AWD Leafs, Bolts, Imprezas, Kona EVs were already out and about, but they are not going to be for a little while, I think.

    So you can see I've thought about it a bit - still interested to hear what the brain trust has to say!

  4. #154
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    ^^^ you seem to be on the right track. The other one worth considering is a 2019 Nissan Leaf Plus with ProPilot, if you can find one at a deal. That gives you a 200+mi range and ProPilot (adaptive cruise control plus nearly self steering) is really really good.

    Why they don't offer the Bolt with adaptive cruise control is a mystery to me. That said, creeping along in traffic with one pedal driving is infinitely more tolerable than doing it in a traditional car.
    Quote Originally Posted by Norseman View Post
    All ye punterz! Leave thine stupid heavy skis in the past, or at least in the resort category, for the age of lightweight pussy sticks is upon us! Behold! Keep up with the randocommandos on their carbon blades of shortness! Break thine tibias into spiral splinters with pintech extravagance!

  5. #155
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    Quite a few new Bolts advertised for around $25k on Autotrader.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4matic View Post
    I just drove a fully loaded Tesla Model 3 sport around the San Mateo mountains and car is the bomb. Quiet (cabin is quiet too), powerful, excellent handling, good ride for 20 inch rims. The only negative I found was wind noise through the roof but I drive S-Class so I'm spoiled in that respect.

    Also, when I was driving i mentioned that the car felt a lot like a Mercedes. Mercedes did own 10% of Tesla and a lot of the parts are sourced from Mercedes

    "I am picking up my new P85D tomorrow! I know from reading this forum that a number of components in the Model-S come from Mercedes or their suppliers. I believe they include:

    - The "transmission" shift stalk
    - The indicator stalk
    - Cruise control stalk
    - The steering wheel
    - The air suspension (if fitted)
    - The door window controls."
    Performance version? I'm don't think the other versions are exactly Mercedes-like but the performance version is a different beast.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4matic View Post
    I just drove a fully loaded Tesla Model 3 sport around the San Mateo mountains and car is the bomb. Quiet (cabin is quiet too), powerful, excellent handling, good ride for 20 inch rims. The only negative I found was wind noise through the roof but I drive S-Class so I'm spoiled in that respect.

    Also, when I was driving i mentioned that the car felt a lot like a Mercedes. Mercedes did own 10% of Tesla and a lot of the parts are sourced from Mercedes

    "I am picking up my new P85D tomorrow! I know from reading this forum that a number of components in the Model-S come from Mercedes or their suppliers. I believe they include:

    - The "transmission" shift stalk
    - The indicator stalk
    - Cruise control stalk
    - The steering wheel
    - The air suspension (if fitted)
    - The door window controls."
    Yeah, per Musk's book they wanted to model Tesla after Mercedes as much as possible and I do recall some sort of partnership until Mercedes woke up and realized they were going to be a direct competitor going after their customers.

  8. #158
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    Mercedes owned the stock and took profit.

    I read but canít verify that the Tesla Model S chassis is same as Mercedes S- class but all aluminum.

  9. #159
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    Yeah, I want to say they were using their actual frame to begin with. I cannot recall, but certainly a strong connection was there for a bit.

    How are you liking the new ride?

  10. #160
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    It appears that ProPilot was introduced to the 2018 Leafs and the non-plus version go for less the $20k used which is not too bad. 150 miles range is ok, but that becomes a pure commute/day trip car - albeit probably a very good one. I don't think the Volt has one pedal driving, so it probably makes sense to try a few different options and see what seems most useful to me.

  11. #161
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    FWIW I really, really liked the Leaf when I test drove one. Only reason I went with the Bolt instead is I couldn't find a dealer in CO that would give me a decent price on a Leaf Plus. I liked it a little better than the Bolt overall, mostly because of ProPilot and exterior styling, but I wasn't filling to pay several thousand dollars more for one (there were a few places the Bolt won out - telescoping steering wheel, interior styling/layout, arguably more durable batteries)
    Quote Originally Posted by Norseman View Post
    All ye punterz! Leave thine stupid heavy skis in the past, or at least in the resort category, for the age of lightweight pussy sticks is upon us! Behold! Keep up with the randocommandos on their carbon blades of shortness! Break thine tibias into spiral splinters with pintech extravagance!

  12. #162
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    This is a great website. It allows you to plan routes effectively and and get charging times and such. It gives information about cars that are not out yet.

    https://abetterrouteplanner.com/

    This is another exciting option. I really like the idea of BOTH FCEV and BEV, with 600 miles between the two. Mammoth is 340 miles from my house and with this car I would be able to drive to Mammoth and not have to charge the battery until Bishop on the way home. I really like that idea. Unfortunately like Rivian, the Cybertruck and the Fisker Ocean it is not available yet.

    https://nikolamotor.com/badger
    "Have you ever seen a monk get wildly fucked by a bunch of teenage girls?" "No" "Then forget the monastery."


    "You ever hear of a little show called branded? Arthur Digby Sellers wrote 156 episodes. Not exactly a lightweight." Walter Sobcheck.

    "I didn't have a grandfather on the board of some fancy college. Key word being was. Did he touch the Filipino exchange student? Did he not touch the Filipino exchange student? I don't know Brooke, I wasn't there."

  13. #163
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    Tesla forums use a 2 KWH loss per 1000 ft climb rule of thumb for the lightish sedans. So around 20 KWH extra loss for your Tesla, which is around a loss of 70 miles in range.

  14. #164
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  15. #165
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    ^^ It's almost as if making the same product over and over while not responding to a changing marketplace is bad for business.

  16. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamburello Rouge View Post
    ^^ It's almost as if making the same product over and over while not responding to a changing marketplace is bad for business.
    I don't think that's fair. BMW and Mercedes haven't stayed the same. They've gotten worse. Audi took advantage first. Now Tesla.

  17. #167
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    I test drove a Leaf. The Propilot Assist works nicely and overall the car was pleasant. The silence and smoothness of electric definitely seems easier for commuting and daily driving. $27k (after tax and fees) still is a little steep for a 150 mile range subcompact car that still appears poised to depreciate extraordinarily quickly. It seems like a used Bolt or Volt would be a better value, but I haven't tried those out yet. A plus on the Bolt would be the very low maintenance and seemingly low likelihood that I would ever need to go to the dealer. I'm still intrigued by the Volt but the idea of having to take a super complex plug in hybrid to a Chevy dealership gives me night sweats. Also, WA has a weird electric vehicle car tab fee that you have to pay if you plug-in gets more than 50 miles on electric, which the Volt does.

    I would prefer a model 3 sized car, but I'm not in love with the price tag, RWD for the low end model, or the poor rear visibility. I suppose the value at least doesn't appear to drop like a rock so that might be a plus.

  18. #168
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    The brewery owners wife just got the high end tesla sports car. Waaaaaaay over priced.

    I wanted to tell her she should have got a new corvette. Its an 80K tax write off anyway.
    watch out for snakes

  19. #169
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    "It’s no stretch to say that Tesla has disrupted the very backbone of Europe’s largest economy."

    It's a pretty fucking big stretch. What a shit article, looks like the guy wrote it in ten minutes for, CCN, the 'ol Trinadad and Tobago news source run from Norway! With links to Clean Technica as references, ha.

    Maybe Tesla will be a disrupter in germany soon, but that article, now I think about it was probably written by an AI bot, is wrong. Top cars in Germany last year:

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  20. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by muted View Post
    "It’s no stretch to say that Tesla has disrupted the very backbone of Europe’s largest economy."

    It's a pretty fucking big stretch. What a shit article, looks like the guy wrote it in ten minutes for, CCN, the 'ol Trinadad and Tobago news source run from Norway! With links to Clean Technica as references, ha.

    Maybe Tesla will be a disrupter in germany soon, but that article, now I think about it was probably written by an AI bot, is wrong. Top cars in Germany last year:

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    Agree. I didn't know what the fuck he was talking about, other than spewing opinions as "facts".
    Well maybe I'm the faggot America
    I'm not a part of a redneck agenda

  21. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by muted View Post
    "It’s no stretch to say that Tesla has disrupted the very backbone of Europe’s largest economy."

    It's a pretty fucking big stretch. What a shit article, looks like the guy wrote it in ten minutes for, CCN, the 'ol Trinadad and Tobago news source run from Norway! With links to Clean Technica as references, ha.

    Maybe Tesla will be a disrupter in germany soon, but that article, now I think about it was probably written by an AI bot, is wrong. Top cars in Germany last year:
    Pretty sure car sales in Germany alone are not that important, as it's only one nation. What the article is saying is that worldwide, people are buying the Tesla Model 3 instead of the BMW 3 Series or the MB C Class. In the U.S. alone, the Model 3 outsold the 3 Series and C Class by more than three times (48,000 vs 160,000). The German auto industry is feeling this and responding. As the demand for their product decreases, they are reducing shifts, having layoffs, reorganizing factories, etc. This is what has "disrupted the very backbone of Europe’s largest economy" (Germany).

  22. #172
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    Interesting announcement from GM today: https://www.engadget.com/2020/03/04/...-ev-batteries/

  23. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamburello Rouge View Post
    Pretty sure car sales in Germany alone are not that important, as it's only one nation. What the article is saying is that worldwide, people are buying the Tesla Model 3 instead of the BMW 3 Series or the MB C Class. In the U.S. alone, the Model 3 outsold the 3 Series and C Class by more than three times (48,000 vs 160,000). The German auto industry is feeling this and responding. As the demand for their product decreases, they are reducing shifts, having layoffs, reorganizing factories, etc. This is what has "disrupted the very backbone of Europe’s largest economy" (Germany).
    Well, I certainly missed that important point, whoops.

  24. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dantheman View Post
    Interesting announcement from GM today: https://www.engadget.com/2020/03/04/...-ev-batteries/
    Saw that, but precious little info on what they are going to do for a 1/4 ton or 1/2 ton truck, and that’s all that matters.
    Hummer don’t fucking count.
    (But I bet it’s the same/similar platform)
    Forum Cross Pollinator

  25. #175
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    Ford has announced an e-Transit van, but just for short haul urban duties.

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