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  1. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by frorider View Post
    Ford has announced an e-Transit van, but just for short haul urban duties.
    That's perfect really. Help out the city smog mess.

  2. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by frorider View Post
    Ford has announced an e-Transit van, but just for short haul urban duties.
    I really want to see e-vans and e-minivans with long range capability. I'm picturing an awd, low center of gravity with great driving dynamics minivan that fits bikes and people and pets and stuff inside and goes 400 miles without breaking a sweat. I could be convinced to make a Rivian T work I guess. I think a sales number that the industry as a whole is missing is people like me that will wait the transition out and let our old dinomobiles wear out before we get an e-car.

  3. #178
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    I think they are counting on that demographic the most, as these things wonít be in really widespread distribution (or have that reliable, loaded range yet) for 3-7 years, in which time your dinomobile will shit the bed.
    Forum Cross Pollinator

  4. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by frorider View Post
    Tesla forums use a 2 KWH loss per 1000 ft climb rule of thumb for the lightish sedans. So around 20 KWH extra loss for your Tesla, which is around a loss of 70 miles in range.
    The website does take that into account.

  5. #180
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    On a day when I really wish I was in Mammoth, or at least skiing Baldy, here are some examples of using the abetterrouteplanner website:

    This trip is using a model 3 with AWD with long range option. It assumes leaving from the Newport Center Drive area of Newport Beach, I'm not going to post my actual address, and going to Mammoth lakes, the supercharger there is the endpoint. You will see the route, you can move it on the map for other options. If you figure that a normal gas stop is 5-10 minutes, this trip is just basically that, then adding a 12-15 minute stop. This assumes leaving with a 100% charge, I know people don't usually charge to 100%, and arriving with a 10% charge, which would work because Tesla has a supercharger in Mammoth lakes.

    Basically it only adds 10-15 minutes to the trip when compared with an ICE. That is something I can handle. It might mean that when I leave in the morning I leave at 4 am instead of 415. I can handle that. We don't have a charger at our ski lease, so this would mean I would probably have to charge for 20-30 minutes the next morning, leaving the car at the supercharger on Tavern while I go to the Looney Bean. This is obviously not ideal, but it is something I could work with.

    https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?pla...1-78ca8607077d


    This would be the trip coming home: In this case it assumes starting with a 10% charge in Mammoth:

    https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?pla...1-1e3795057899

    Basically, you just have to charge for 20-25 minutes in the morning in Mammoth, or before you leave, your choice, then you would need to charge for 20-25 minutes in Lone Pine or Inyokern on the way home. That can be combined with a meal. Obviously this is not ideal yet, but it is something I could deal with.

    I will add that for my needs some extra time on the way back is not a big deal, when I go to Mammoth I am occasionally going at 4 am and skiing that day, so it is more important to be able to get to Mammoth with less added time than it is in regards to the trip home, I don't really care when I get back to Newport for the most part. If I am leaving in the early afternoon going to Mammoth then obviously I am not skiing that day, so a bit more time charging is not as big of a deal then.

    Here is the same trip, first from Newport to Mammoth, with the large battery Cybertruck:

    https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?pla...d-aa38009d5d08

    This would certainly be nice: Basically charge for 10 minutes in Lone Pine, not really any different than a gas stop, and you would arrive in Mammoth with a 15% charge. One could also charge in Mojave.

    Here is the return route in the Cybertruck:

    https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?pla...2-6cb64ff931c1

    In this case I used the option of specifically charging to 40% in Mammoth. We could do things differently. Basically I would go get coffee and charge for 26 minutes one morning, then charge for 49 minutes in Lone Pine. Obviously it would make sense to grab a meal in Lone Pine.

    What is interesting is that if I don't add the setting of charging to 40% one could charge for an hour and 15 minutes in Mammoth and make it home to Newport with a 10% charge remaining. What that means for people who own second homes in Mammoth, or can charge where they are staying, they can make it home without charging on the road.

    Obviously there is some variation to these numbers, but Mammoth is getting more and more doable for electric car owners.

    Now, to spice things up, I used a Rivian. First, I used an R1S with the largest charge:

    https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?pla...7-28aa2e8406a6

    In this case one could make it all the way to Bishop, but that would be driving 62 max. I would prefer the option of charging for 33 minutes in Mojave, or maybe 10 minutes in Mojave and 20 minutes in Bishop.

    For this one I used an arrival charge of 25%. I did this because there is no EA charger in Mammoth, so unlike Tesla I would have to charge in Bishop. If I am driving up in the morning and want to ski I would probably limit charging on the way up. If I am leaving in the afternoon that is not a concern, so I would probably charge for longer in Bishop. I really hope EA puts a station in Mammoth.

    Here is the route home, assuming starting with a 25% charge in Mammoth.

    https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?pla...8-8d556aa49c62

    In this case you would just get a meal in Bishop and charge for an hour to an hour and 10 minutes.

    Obviously Tesla has an advantage in charging. But if you can charge where you are staying in Mammoth that is less of an issue. I would think EA would be trying to put a charger in Mammoth Lakes, hopefully they will soon.

    Here is the trip in the Rivian with a destination charge of 10%, i.e. what you would do if you could charge in Mammoth, the way you can with a Tesla:

    https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?pla...8-05a81efc5c22

    If one could charge in Mammoth Lakes, and thus arrive with a 10% charge, then you could charge once on the road for around 20 minutes, which is basically only 10 minutes more than for an ICE with a gas stop.

    Obviously the Rivian and the Cybertruck are not available yet. But the good news is that it is getting more and more feasible to drive electric vehicles to Mammoth. The fact that I make 12 Mammoth trips a year has been the main thing holding me back, but it is becoming very doable. Basically it adds 10-20 minutes to the trip there, which I can handle. It is not as convenient as an ICE vehicle yet, but things are getting there.

    I am very strongly considering an AWD Model 3. We have a deposit down for a Cybertruck, but that might take a little while. One can put the backseats of the model 3 down, which coupled with the AWD would make it workable for skiing and surfing. The first trip up to Mammoth of the year might be a little cramped in the car, we have to bring up the stuff we keep in Mammoth on that trip, but I could make do. It would allow us to finally start driving mostly on solar power, we went solar recently, so that would be nice. I think a model 3 now, and then a Cybertruck or maybe a Rivian (or possible a Fisker Ocean) when they become available would be awesome. My wife likes the Model 3, so she would be fine with driving that in a couple of years when the RIvian and Cybertruck are available.

    It would be nice if Mammoth was 100 miles closer, but things are getting more and more doable. I would guess that in 5 years things will be a lot easier. It would also be nice if our ski lease had a garage so that we could charge there. One nice thing is that we are right on the Yellow Line, so we basically don't drive when we are in Mammoth.

    I would be interested to see how this would work for people up north who spend their weekends in Tahoe.
    Last edited by Long duc dong; 04-05-2020 at 12:32 PM.
    "Have you ever seen a monk get wildly fucked by a bunch of teenage girls?" "No" "Then forget the monastery."


    "You ever hear of a little show called branded? Arthur Digby Sellers wrote 156 episodes. Not exactly a lightweight." Walter Sobcheck.

    "I didn't have a grandfather on the board of some fancy college. Key word being was. Did he touch the Filipino exchange student? Did he not touch the Filipino exchange student? I don't know Brooke, I wasn't there."

  6. #181
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    Maybe I read utter BS, but I am under the impression the environmental impact of mining for materials, manufacturing processes and eventual disposal of batteries is really bad. Why can't we embrace hydrogen powered cars? Seems the way to go to this jong.
    Quote Originally Posted by leroy jenkins View Post
    I think you'd have an easier time understanding people if you remembered that 80% of them are fucking morons.
    That is why I like dogs, more than most people.

  7. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by liv2ski View Post
    Maybe I read utter BS, but I am under the impression the environmental impact of mining for materials, manufacturing processes and eventual disposal of batteries is really bad. Why can't we embrace hydrogen powered cars? Seems the way to go to this jong.
    I don't think the mining is as bad as driving ICE cars, but that is a concern for sure. I have not actually looked into it, so don't take my word for it. What would be REALLY great are solid state batteries, which have less environmental impact and also charge faster and hold bigger charges. From what I have heard they are still too expensive, but people are working on it. That is one of the positive things right now, at least people are trying to take on the problem. Our nation has had its head in the sand for a long time.

    I agree about Hydrogen though. The Nikola Badger is going to be able to go both:

    https://nikolamotor.com/badger
    "Have you ever seen a monk get wildly fucked by a bunch of teenage girls?" "No" "Then forget the monastery."


    "You ever hear of a little show called branded? Arthur Digby Sellers wrote 156 episodes. Not exactly a lightweight." Walter Sobcheck.

    "I didn't have a grandfather on the board of some fancy college. Key word being was. Did he touch the Filipino exchange student? Did he not touch the Filipino exchange student? I don't know Brooke, I wasn't there."

  8. #183
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    If we could produce hydrogen without using more power the separate it from other molecules than the power the hydrogen produces. Then hydrogen powered cars would be the solution. However, right now we donít have the technology to separate hydrogen in a effective large scale.

  9. #184
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    Last weekend while driving around the N. GA/W. N.C mountains I fell in line behind not one but two brand spankin new Taycan Turbos (manufacturer's plates so obviously from Porsche's NA HQ in ATL I'm guessing) and a Boxster Speedster.

    First of all, and totally irrelevant to this thread, the Speedster made pure, fucking, unadulterated, sex noises.

    Once I was done being distracted by that it was hard to not see how flat-out fast the Taycans were. I mean, just fucking gone fast. I'd be driving hard behind the Speedster and I know he was too, but these Taycans would just get up and go and we wouldn't see em despite the twisty-turny mountain roads we were on till the top or bottom. Couldn't figure out their next charge point though cause we were pretty much in the boonies.
    I still call it The Jake.

  10. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by liv2ski View Post
    Maybe I read utter BS, but I am under the impression the environmental impact of mining for materials, manufacturing processes and eventual disposal of batteries is really bad. Why can't we embrace hydrogen powered cars? Seems the way to go to this jong.
    I have heard several people express this concern, so I did a bit of reading. The summary is that over the life cycle of the vehicle, ICE cars cannot compete with EVs in terms of their CO2 emissions. This appears to be widely agreed upon.

    References:
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesel.../#6f7439f76d24

    Electric vehicles as they currently stand are far less polluting than their combustion engine counterparts. As the technology becomes more mainstream, it is likely to become even more efficient and sustainable. Economies of scale will benefit EV manufacturing by providing better infrastructure, more efficient manufacturing techniques, recycling options and reduce the need for the mining of new materials. Electric vehicles are not a panacea but combined with greater deployment of renewables and the decarbonization of the electricity grid they offer a pathway to greatly reduce greenhouse gas emissions.
    https://theicct.org/sites/default/fi...9022018_vF.pdf


    However there are more variables than I originally would have thought about, including the power source used to manufacture the battery - as it is power-intensive. Also, the size of the battery/car as larger requires more materials and energy to manufacture and more energy to power as well. The electric to charge the car matters a lot as well - It appears that coal-generated electricity in an EV could get close to an efficient ICE car in emissions in some cases.

    After realizing that a clean power source and a mild climate are the perfect scenario for EV driving - and that's what I have in WA - I have started to strongly consider it.

    This video explains the comparison very well:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RhtiPefVzM

  11. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by altacoup View Post
    If we could produce hydrogen without using more power the separate it from other molecules than the power the hydrogen produces. Then hydrogen powered cars would be the solution. However, right now we don’t have the technology to separate hydrogen in a effective large scale.
    Interesting new development: https://phys.org/news/2020-04-closer...roduction.html

    IIRC, on-board storage is also somewhat of a problem. To get sufficient energy density from compressed H2 gas requires pressures of 5,000-10,000 psi, which is essentially a rather powerful bomb waiting to happen. The tanks also have to be some kind of fancy and expensive carbon fiber.

  12. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by BmillsSkier View Post
    Last weekend while driving around the N. GA/W. N.C mountains I fell in line behind not one but two brand spankin new Taycan Turbos.
    Wait, Porsche is branding an EV as a "turbo?"

  13. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by The AD View Post
    Wait, Porsche is branding an EV as a "turbo?"
    Not the first time VW has used deception

  14. #189
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    Hey Long Dong, nice analysis. I think I posted about this earlier, but my friend with his Model X has only taken it to Tahoe from Marin County once, because the charging stations on the way were taken, and the 10-20 minute stop you mentioned was more than an hour. We will prolly be getting a model 3, (or something), for our next car, but our 223 mile trip has zero charging stations along the way, and 2 mountain passes in winter. It's close.
    Anyway, you could probably put stuff in a roof rack on the 3, and a hitch to put other stuff on the back, and make it work.
    Well maybe I'm the faggot America
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  15. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dromond View Post

    After realizing that a clean power source and a mild climate are the perfect scenario for EV driving - and that's what I have in WA - I have started to strongly consider it.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RhtiPefVzM
    Thanks for posting! I will definitely check those links out.

    When we (finally) got our solar installed it kick-started my desire to get an EV. That coupled with the fact that the trip to Mammoth has become much more feasible of late is really spurring me in that direction. My climate, Orange County, is quite mild, and even though I make about 12 trips a year to Mammoth I drive very little while there and the trip to Mammoth is quite mild for the most part. You really don't see mountain conditions/cold until you are up the Sherwin grade, so only the last 1/2 hour of the trip. Because I drive to Mammoth so much an EV with a 200 mile charge simply will not work. But now that charging times and options are getting better, and batteries are getting larger charges, it is becoming a more workable option. I am lucky enough to work from home and my wife has a tiny commute. The car I drive is a 2010 Ford Escape. I typically put about 12,000 miles a year on it. In a typical year around 8400 of those miles are too and from Mammoth. Because I don't have a commute, and because I rarely drive very far from my home, it makes sense to go with an option that takes care of a substantial percentage of my mileage to Mammoth.

    I had thought of going with a plug-in hybrid SUV, Jeep Compass or the upcoming RAV4, but the issue is that while almost all of my miles close to home would not be solar generated, most of my miles would still be gas-driven. Don't get me wrong, if I were to go in that direction I would still be reducing my footprint by quite a bit, I would be getting around 3600 miles from solar and 8400 from gas as opposed to 12000 from gas, but it is still not as strong as the reduction from an EV. This is particularly true considering that most of my miles will now be solar generated.

    Anyway, lots of stuff to think about.
    "Have you ever seen a monk get wildly fucked by a bunch of teenage girls?" "No" "Then forget the monastery."


    "You ever hear of a little show called branded? Arthur Digby Sellers wrote 156 episodes. Not exactly a lightweight." Walter Sobcheck.

    "I didn't have a grandfather on the board of some fancy college. Key word being was. Did he touch the Filipino exchange student? Did he not touch the Filipino exchange student? I don't know Brooke, I wasn't there."

  16. #191
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    Anyone figure out the effect of cold winter driving on the battery life of any of the EVs yet? Haven't checked in on this in a while we are looking for something that would suffice for Colorado winter mountain highway commuting. This means regular cold, snowy, slushy, conditions over a mountain pass.

    I had a Tesla salesman in Vail who was constantly emailing and calling until I started asking simple questions like the one above. So I am assuming there are limitations.

    We were checking out the Hybrid Rav4s a while back. Those look pretty sweet, and might be the direction we go, if only they were a little faster...

  17. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by plugboots View Post
    Hey Long Dong, nice analysis. I think I posted about this earlier, but my friend with his Model X has only taken it to Tahoe from Marin County once, because the charging stations on the way were taken, and the 10-20 minute stop you mentioned was more than an hour. We will prolly be getting a model 3, (or something), for our next car, but our 223 mile trip has zero charging stations along the way, and 2 mountain passes in winter. It's close.
    Anyway, you could probably put stuff in a roof rack on the 3, and a hitch to put other stuff on the back, and make it work.
    That's interesting, and it was something that would worry me in an area as Tesla heavy as the bay. I think the Cybertruck might be something of a game changer for bay/Tahoe weekenders because of the charge. Here is using that website for a Cybertruck leaving from Menlo Park:

    https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?pla...d-9115e8a6269b

    This is for a roundtrip. Obviously there are some variables in this case, it assumes one would be staying in Olympic Valley for instance, but it gives an idea of just how much of a game change the Cybertruck charge could be for people in the bay.

    For me with the 3 I could probably get away without a rack or hitch. We leave our stuff up at our ski lease, we only take our boots and some clothes to wear when not on the hill, so the only trip with lots of stuff is the first one, when we take skis, jackets et. al. to the lease. I might be able to do that over the course of two trips instead of one. It is not perfect, but it would be feasible. I hesitate to put a roof rack or hitch on because that would decrease the range, but I might do it for the first trip of the year.
    "Have you ever seen a monk get wildly fucked by a bunch of teenage girls?" "No" "Then forget the monastery."


    "You ever hear of a little show called branded? Arthur Digby Sellers wrote 156 episodes. Not exactly a lightweight." Walter Sobcheck.

    "I didn't have a grandfather on the board of some fancy college. Key word being was. Did he touch the Filipino exchange student? Did he not touch the Filipino exchange student? I don't know Brooke, I wasn't there."

  18. #193
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    I might do it for the first trip of the year.
    That's what I was thinking.

    Anyone figure out the effect of cold winter driving on the battery life of any of the EVs yet?
    Lots of info online. It's bad, can be 40-50% loss. https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forum...her-range-loss
    Well maybe I'm the faggot America
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  19. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Name Redacted View Post
    Anyone figure out the effect of cold winter driving on the battery life of any of the EVs yet? Haven't checked in on this in a while we are looking for something that would suffice for Colorado winter mountain highway commuting. This means regular cold, snowy, slushy, conditions over a mountain pass.

    I had a Tesla salesman in Vail who was constantly emailing and calling until I started asking simple questions like the one above. So I am assuming there are limitations.

    We were checking out the Hybrid Rav4s a while back. Those look pretty sweet, and might be the direction we go, if only they were a little faster...
    I would think a Tesla salesman based in Vail should know that kind of stuff

    Here is a trip to Abasin from the supercharger in Boulder and back. This website does (I'm 99% sure) take temperature into account, but it would be operating on CURRENT temperature, not what it would be on a cold January day. As plugboots says, the battery loss is significant.

    https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?pla...c-907ca2596f39
    "Have you ever seen a monk get wildly fucked by a bunch of teenage girls?" "No" "Then forget the monastery."


    "You ever hear of a little show called branded? Arthur Digby Sellers wrote 156 episodes. Not exactly a lightweight." Walter Sobcheck.

    "I didn't have a grandfather on the board of some fancy college. Key word being was. Did he touch the Filipino exchange student? Did he not touch the Filipino exchange student? I don't know Brooke, I wasn't there."

  20. #195
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    This guy's blog has some interesting stats regarding using a roof box on a Model 3.

    http://kootenayevfamily.ca/model-3-r...sumption-test/

  21. #196
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    Tesla has updated their software to make their cars a bit more efficient in cold weather. And newer Teslas fair a bit better with some new designs. So what some guy in Chicago experiences in 0 degree, high humidity weather in 2015, with a model s, isn't gonna be a great comparison. Yes they do lose battery life in cold weather no matter what. How much? Maybe 15-20% at the least. Also keep in mind regenerative braking gains. I have mine on the lightest setting, and when I go down BCC or LCC in Utah after skiing I don't lose any miles, I might gain 3-5. In the cold. Same with Parleys Canyon.

    Long Dong, can't you plug it into your ski-lease overnight? Even better, can you plug it in to a dryer plug? A regular plug will take forever to charge, like a half a day or more but I have mine hooked up to a 220 at work and it's maybe 15 or 20 percent slower than the 220 Tesla charger at home.

    All my numbers/percentages are rough guesses, I don't pay attention as I don't go on road trips with it so I don't need to care. I added snow tires and a roof rack too. Yeah, it reduced range but I have no idea how much. 18 months of owning one and I've never gone to a public charger.

    https://www.tesla.com/support/winter-driving-tips

  22. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by muted View Post

    Long Dong, can't you plug it into your ski-lease overnight? Even better, can you plug it in to a dryer plug? A regular plug will take forever to charge, like a half a day or more but I have mine hooked up to a 220 at work and it's maybe 15 or 20 percent slower than the 220 Tesla charger at home.


    https://www.tesla.com/support/winter-driving-tips
    Unfortunately, with our current ski lease the parking lot of a bit of a ways from the condo, so it really would not work to plug it in there. I REALLY wish that was the case, if we had a garage it would be a night and day difference. We have a good relationship with the owner of the property, so I don't want to look for another lease if possible as this one fits our needs. It is also right on the yellow line in Mammoth lakes, and you can the village if you wanted to, although the walk is not pleasant. I really wish we could plug-in there, that would make a things much easier. The distance from the font door to the parking area is just too far. Ski leases can be tough to find in Mammoth, lots of landlords want to rent for a full year and lots of people are doing airbnb, so we don't want to leave this one.

    My hope is that within the next few years some of these condo complexes will get chargers. We will see. I see Teslas all over the place in my neighborhood and I see lots of them going up the 395, so it would make sense for the complexes up there, who primarily rent to people going up for the weekend from socal, to try and make things convenient for their guests.
    "Have you ever seen a monk get wildly fucked by a bunch of teenage girls?" "No" "Then forget the monastery."


    "You ever hear of a little show called branded? Arthur Digby Sellers wrote 156 episodes. Not exactly a lightweight." Walter Sobcheck.

    "I didn't have a grandfather on the board of some fancy college. Key word being was. Did he touch the Filipino exchange student? Did he not touch the Filipino exchange student? I don't know Brooke, I wasn't there."

  23. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Long duc dong View Post
    Unfortunately, with our current ski lease the parking lot of a bit of a ways from the condo, so it really would not work to plug it in there. I REALLY wish that was the case, if we had a garage it would be a night and day difference. We have a good relationship with the owner of the property, so I don't want to look for another lease if possible as this one fits our needs. It is also right on the yellow line in Mammoth lakes, and you can the village if you wanted to, although the walk is not pleasant. I really wish we could plug-in there, that would make a things much easier. The distance from the font door to the parking area is just too far. Ski leases can be tough to find in Mammoth, lots of landlords want to rent for a full year and lots of people are doing airbnb, so we don't want to leave this one.

    My hope is that within the next few years some of these condo complexes will get chargers. We will see. I see Teslas all over the place in my neighborhood and I see lots of them going up the 395, so it would make sense for the complexes up there, who primarily rent to people going up for the weekend from socal, to try and make things convenient for their guests.
    Yeah, that's tough. But so would having all the chargers full at the Tesla charging station, you gotta have a back up at the condo or charge up a lot more at Bishop.

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    I have a feeling the car landscapes gonna look a little different in 2-3 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by muted View Post
    Yeah, that's tough. But so would having all the chargers full at the Tesla charging station, you gotta have a back up at the condo or charge up a lot more at Bishop.
    That is actually why I am leaning Tesla over Rivian at this point. Tesla has a charger in Mammoth Lakes, so I could charge on Sunday morning at 7 am before skiing, it would probably not be crowded at that time. One good thing is that my wife and I usually go up in the mornings, so we would hit Lone Pine around 730 or 8 am, at which point the line would probably not be too bad. If we do leave in the afternoon we usually get out by around 2 pm, so if we have to wait at the charger in Lone Pine it really is not that big of a deal, we can get a meal.

    It is going to be an adjustment, but I think things have changed enough that I can make it work. I think being strategic will be important: My guess is that there will be a big line at the charger in Mammoth Lakes around 4 pm on Sunday, when socal people are leaving. The key will be to avoid charging at that time.

    Tesla is putting in a charger in Bishop too, which is good. Right now Bishop only has Electrify America.

    Dunfree,

    I would agree. In California things are really moving fast. I think in 5 years it will be much easier to go to Mammoth or Tahoe.
    "Have you ever seen a monk get wildly fucked by a bunch of teenage girls?" "No" "Then forget the monastery."


    "You ever hear of a little show called branded? Arthur Digby Sellers wrote 156 episodes. Not exactly a lightweight." Walter Sobcheck.

    "I didn't have a grandfather on the board of some fancy college. Key word being was. Did he touch the Filipino exchange student? Did he not touch the Filipino exchange student? I don't know Brooke, I wasn't there."

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