Electric car thread

[Beaver]

Welp, it is now more expensive to charge an electric car vs ICE, on top of the substantial premium you pay for the car in the first place.

https://jalopnik.com/driving-100-mil...utm_source=YPL

That is so fuckjng stupid I'm not even going to open that link.

[Beaver]

My math to date after 6 months.

17000km driven. Avg 18.4kwh/100km. $0.1001/kwh.
17000*18.4/100*0.1001=$313.11cad.

Even if I include an $800 charger it's fuckjng cheap.

ICE equivalent including oil changes is about $3000. My EV trips replace a mix of 30% Toyota Tacoma (12.5l/100km) and 70% Matrix (7.5l/100km) trips. With fuel everywhere from 1.60 to 2.10/l in the last 6 months, $3000 is probably a little low.

[neufox47]

You are at $.10 per kwh all in? NH is over $.30 once you take into account transmission fees, the actual juice is a $.225ish. That certainly changes the math.

Average for the US is $.165 + transmission. https://www.bls.gov/regions/midwest/...reas_table.htm

Why don’t you do some “basic math” off the average electric rate you just cited and tell us again how your original point holds up.

[LongShortLong]

I'll help. Before starting on the mathasshattery, I hear Toyoda is out, and electric Toyotas are in.

Still gonna help, but some limitations first. EV never needs to visit a gas station, it starts every morning with 200+ miles in the "tank." Hardly needs any maintenance, no oil changes. No smog check. Doesn't make smog. Doesn't stink. Don't need me to handle carcinogens to "refuel"

Using $.225/kwh, 3.5 miles/kwh, and 35mpg, and ignoring all the inconveniences of ICE - any time gas is over $2.25, electric is cheaper
(model S does a little worse than 3.5miles/kWh, bolt a little better)
(25 mpg needs gas under $1.61)

Where I'm at, electric is about .45, and gas is about $4.50, and my ICE does better than 35 mpg and is paid for, so I'll keep polluting for awhile, though it would be nice to never worry about low fuel. Get in and go is a strong selling point. The potential for energy independence with some solar panels is also attractive.

[Mustonen]

but if your really think about it; it’s a home improvement that increases the value of your home and should be thought of as such…

I’m working on insulating and finishing the interior of my garage. Before I cover any walls I plan to run 220 to both sides of the garage. I may or may not purchase an EV in the near future, but that’s just a thing I suppose a garage should have these days and I’m going to sell this place at some point.

[Core Shot]

45 per kWh? Ouch

And yeah. Add 220 to any new house or garage Reno. It’s future proofing. Kinda like running cat5 before wifi came out.

[LongShortLong]

45 per kWh? Ouch

Welcome to California / PG&E. Not sure what they did. My guess is mainly subsidizing forest fire insurance via electric rates, AKA insurance industry subsidizing our legislators to pass bad law. I do know they extended the paid-off "special deregulation/enron/scam surcharge" to cover fires that every other state leaves to private fire insurance.

[gravitylover]

Look what they want to make for us https://www.topgear.com/car-news/ele...truck-revealed

[Ted Striker]

Average total personal vehicle fuel economy in the US is estimated at about 24mpg (and that's probably on the high side considering all the old POS that are still on the road). Using Teslas as an example (because they're still way out ahead in sales volume) the average is 3.4 miles/kW

Cheapest gas in my town is $3.50 and residential electricity is 11 cents for the first 600 kWh and 13 cents above that. Since a house will use that 600 regardless, I'll call it $0.13

So $0.146/mile for gas vs $0.038 for electric

[Core Shot]

I used to pay 14 cents. This months bill is 22

Wtf. Guess I should expect 45 pretty soon as we all californicate

[LongShortLong]

I used to pay 14 cents. This months bill is 22

Wtf. Guess I should expect 45 pretty soon as we all californicate

My bet is our politicians are uniquely talented (stupid) and yours will make other decisions (mistakes).

I googled around a little in an attempt to figure out what we're paying for, but all the articles seem more concerned about political shit like equity rather than why it's so expensive. Seems to me if we were paying $0.13 or $0.22 instead of $0.49 (the peak rate), we wouldn't need to think about equity. They mention various costs like wildfire prevention, poor programs, solar incentives, etc., but no numbers. The Enron fee isn't mentioned, but it was repurposed and extended to pay for PG&E's wildfire bankruptcy. One article mentioned enviros wanted high rates to discourage use, but now that's conflicting with the desire to shift to electric cars and electric heat. Something like a Sankey diagram for PG&E's electric generation expenses would be really nice.

[muted reborn]

0.08 kw here in SLC, then over 400kw it's .10kw. My total bill for a 2100 sq ft house with an EV was 150 for December, that includes a dozen or more of 2-hour round trips to go skiing.

I can also charge at work for 'free', it's a tax write off since I write off all electricity here at work - but didn't do it once in December.

[gravitylover]

Damn. Our house is under 2k sq ft, we keep our heat on 65-66 and our December bill was almost $400 and we have fan forced oil heat. (The oil was another ~$400).

[Dantheman]

My electric bill is $50/mo in the winter (natgas furnace with 1500w blower, electric dryer, electric stove/oven). Gets up to $130ish/mo during peak summer AC use, though I do have a 15 SEER condenser. House is 1,900 ft2.

[spanky]

Average total personal vehicle fuel economy in the US is estimated at about 24mpg (and that's probably on the high side considering all the old POS that are still on the road). Using Teslas as an example (because they're still way out ahead in sales volume) the average is 3.4 miles/kW

Cheapest gas in my town is $3.50 and residential electricity is 11 cents for the first 600 kWh and 13 cents above that. Since a house will use that 600 regardless, I'll call it $0.13

So $0.146/mile for gas vs $0.038 for electric

You got me curious on the cost per mile. I own a 9 year old Grand Cherokee and over 78000 miles I’ve used 4150 gallons of gas at an average price of $2.73/gal. That averages out to 18.9 mpg at $0.144/mile.

Of course, gas is currently $3.25-$3.50/gal in the NYC area so 19 mpg is around $0.17/mile. An electric vehicle at $0.038/mile saves ~$0.13/mile on current gas prices.

Even saving $0.13/mile, it’ll take you 75000 miles to save $10K (neglecting other maintenance cost differences). I’m not sold on the ROI aspect alone on EVs. Regardless, I’m pretty sure my next vehicle will be EV… performance and reduced maintenance being key factors for me.

[gravitylover]

Wife corrected me, we were $140 in December but our rate went from ~ 11¢/kwh to 21-22¢/kwh on 1/1 plus delivery which went went up $30/mo on 1/1 so we're probably going to be just over $300/mo going forward. That pretty much makes an e-car not worth it.

[dcpnz]

My December 2022 bill shows $0.10903/kWh plus 11% taxes and surcharges so $0.121/kWh all in.

My Tesla 3 says we’re averaging 313Wh/mi —-> 31.3 kWh/100 mi. It’s been abnormally mid winter cold lately so probably a contributor to being substantially worse than the 26 kWh/100mi that it’s rated at.
Either way a little math indicates that works out to $3.79 energy cost/100 mi.

Cheapest gas I saw here in western CO on a road trip yesterday was an hour drive away from home and $4.09 for 85. 87 octane which all my vehicles require was $4.34. Locally it’s substantially more. My current vehicle gets around 18 mpg average , less around town, more on highway.

So again Math —> $24.11 per 100mi.
Or over 6x more expensive

Now that’s not quite fair because my large brick like suv is not exactly comparable to my aerodynamic Tesla.
So for shits and giggles let’s stack everything in favor of the ICE and arbitrarily double it’s real world efficiency and say 36 mpg which should be roughly comparable to (if not high for) a vehicle of the size of the Tesla 3 —-> $12.06 /100mi
So only 3x.

Ahh but but but say the ICE fan boys……let’s talk about using a Tesla supercharger - energy rate is substantially higher - I don’t have numbers at hand but last time I did the math it was only minimally cheaper than gas.

See I told you so they said …… but but but what about all the free EV chargers say the EV proponents. Yep that’s true, I often “fill up” my EV at a “free” charger. Free for me but who’s actually paying cos it’s not truly free.

Ah f$#k it - can’t believe I even bothered to write all this - its blazingly obvious that unless you are an idiot or live in a place with wildly expensive electricity AND wildly cheap gas which one is cheaper to run.

Now Spanky actually asks the right question above - what about ROI? Do the operating cost savings actually make economic sense

Hell, I don’t know - not sure how to compare vehicles like to like - it’s essentially apples vs oranges at this point - so I’m not going to extend the brain energy to try.

[neufox47]

I thought all of California had nighttime electric car rate plans? Ours is $.19 / kWh.


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[LongShortLong]

I thought all of California had nighttime electric car rate plans? Ours is $.19 / kWh.


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You are correct, Something called ev-2a plan. PG&E offers $.24/kWh after midnight. Although it also increases the evening electric rate compared to non-ev plan. Win big on vehicle charging, lose a bit on household use.
https://www.pge.com/en_US/residentia...base-plan.page
And GD, choosing an electric plan is as confusing as cell phone plan, complete with weird calculators showing projected savings while hiding the actual plan rates.

[rod9301]

My December 2022 bill shows $0.10903/kWh plus 11% taxes and surcharges so $0.121/kWh all in.

My Tesla 3 says we’re averaging 313Wh/mi —-> 31.3 kWh/100 mi. It’s been abnormally mid winter cold lately so probably a contributor to being substantially worse than the 26 kWh/100mi that it’s rated at.
Either way a little math indicates that works out to $3.79 energy cost/100 mi.

Cheapest gas I saw here in western CO on a road trip yesterday was an hour drive away from home and $4.09 for 85. 87 octane which all my vehicles require was $4.34. Locally it’s substantially more. My current vehicle gets around 18 mpg average , less around town, more on highway.

So again Math —> $24.11 per 100mi.
Or over 6x more expensive

Now that’s not quite fair because my large brick like suv is not exactly comparable to my aerodynamic Tesla.
So for shits and giggles let’s stack everything in favor of the ICE and arbitrarily double it’s real world efficiency and say 36 mpg which should be roughly comparable to (if not high for) a vehicle of the size of the Tesla 3 —-> $12.06 /100mi
So only 3x.

Ahh but but but say the ICE fan boys……let’s talk about using a Tesla supercharger - energy rate is substantially higher - I don’t have numbers at hand but last time I did the math it was only minimally cheaper than gas.

See I told you so they said …… but but but what about all the free EV chargers say the EV proponents. Yep that’s true, I often “fill up” my EV at a “free” charger. Free for me but who’s actually paying cos it’s not truly free.

Ah f$#k it - can’t believe I even bothered to write all this - its blazingly obvious that unless you are an idiot or live in a place with wildly expensive electricity AND wildly cheap gas which one is cheaper to run.

Now Spanky actually asks the right question above - what about ROI? Do the operating cost savings actually make economic sense

Hell, I don’t know - not sure how to compare vehicles like to like - it’s essentially apples vs oranges at this point - so I’m not going to extend the brain energy to try.

You should also true into account the cost to replace a battery which would be .17 per mile.



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[jono]

Always good to hear how the terrorist state masquerading as a gas station wants to spin it.

Batteries are so expensive that they have to go in the landfill every 50k miles but engines are free and last forever with no maintenance, right?

[Core Shot]

50k seems pessimistic. But yeah 100k and done on average.

But we are going to have recycling and recovery and rebuilding? I guess so.

It’s like changing a v6 for a turbo four. Or a turbo three. Turbos blow up at 150k miles. But they can be replaced for a few k. Not 20k

[dcpnz]

You should also true into account the cost to replace a battery which would be .17 per mile.



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Right - lets just assume everyone has to replace an EV battery but no-one ever has to replace an ICE engine, or a transmission or a radiator or do oil changes or……..

[Mani_UT]

I am puzzled by the .40c/Kwh? Why don't you guys have solar? I can't make it work or barely at .10 but at .40 I'd be all over it!!

[Ted Striker]

Battery replacement is a red herring. Nissan started selling Leafs 12 years ago, and hasn't replaced many/any? batteries due to normal wear. It's actually the opposite - the batteries outlast the cars (because of course, they're Nissans), and used batteries have been reused as solar storage. One article of many

Pretty much all EV batteries have an 8 year/100k mile warranty, and Consumer Reports thinks they'll actually go to 200k miles.

Depreciation is also a red herring. This forum's dream car is an unreliable German wagon with a manual transmission. How's the depreciation gonna be on that unicorn? Cars are consumables. Anyone who can afford a dual motor Model 3 could afford a BMW, Audi/VW, Volvo, etc, all of which will be worth a small fraction of new eight years down the road.

I'm trying to decide between a Tesla and a Honda Fit said nobody ever.