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  1. #1226
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    ^^ raises hand sort of. What I need an econobox for is work days where I do less than 250 miles a day so I could theoretically do it with an e-car if I had the right affordable charging setup at home.

  2. #1227
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    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    Always good to hear how the terrorist state masquerading as a gas station wants to spin it.

    Batteries are so expensive that they have to go in the landfill every 50k miles but engines are free and last forever with no maintenance, right?
    I calculated that using 150,000 miles fur z battery.

    Sent from my moto g 5G using Tapatalk

  3. #1228
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
    I'm trying to decide between a Tesla and a Honda Fit said nobody ever.
    Former Fit owner here, I'm trying to decide between a Rivian R1T and a Ford Maverick.

  4. #1229
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    But what about a Honda Fit (Jazz here in Europe) vs a used Ioniq? That's my dilemma at the moment. The only thing holding me back is the more limited range on ioniqs at our price point (the 28kwh version), but i guess we'll get used to it.

  5. #1230
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    Quote Originally Posted by rod9301 View Post
    I calculated that using 150,000 miles fur z battery.
    Bet that worksheet is a beaut. Post it up!

  6. #1231
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    I meant buying them new. In 2020, you could buy two Fits for the price of one M3.

  7. #1232
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    Quote Originally Posted by rod9301 View Post
    I calculated that using 150,000 miles fur z battery.

    Sent from my moto g 5G using Tapatalk
    Based on what? That appears to be the low to very low end of expected lifespan. For reference most data says an ice vehicle will last 200,000 miles and likely have multiple components failing. Sure there are cars with 300k, 500k, 1,000k miles but there are also Teslas with 400,000 miles on a battery. The battery replacement canard is from Russian propagandists and other facists.

  8. #1233
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    Quote Originally Posted by neufox47 View Post
    Based on what? That appears to be the low to very low end of expected lifespan. For reference most data says an ice vehicle will last 200,000 miles and likely have multiple components failing. Sure there are cars with 300k, 500k, 1,000k miles but there are also Teslas with 400,000 miles on a battery. The battery replacement canard is from Russian propagandists and other facists.
    there’s a huge range of ICE failures and you can easily get to 200-300k miles without much maintenance for the right vehicle. I think some of these numbers are people looking at their Lamborghini maintenance and extrapolating

    like oil changes? Annoying, but not terribly expensive

  9. #1234
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcpnz View Post
    My December 2022 bill shows $0.10903/kWh plus 11% taxes and surcharges so $0.121/kWh all in.

    My Tesla 3 says we’re averaging 313Wh/mi —-> 31.3 kWh/100 mi. It’s been abnormally mid winter cold lately so probably a contributor to being substantially worse than the 26 kWh/100mi that it’s rated at.
    Either way a little math indicates that works out to $3.79 energy cost/100 mi.

    Cheapest gas I saw here in western CO on a road trip yesterday was an hour drive away from home and $4.09 for 85. 87 octane which all my vehicles require was $4.34. Locally it’s substantially more. My current vehicle gets around 18 mpg average , less around town, more on highway.

    So again Math —> $24.11 per 100mi.
    Or over 6x more expensive

    Now that’s not quite fair because my large brick like suv is not exactly comparable to my aerodynamic Tesla.
    So for shits and giggles let’s stack everything in favor of the ICE and arbitrarily double it’s real world efficiency and say 36 mpg which should be roughly comparable to (if not high for) a vehicle of the size of the Tesla 3 —-> $12.06 /100mi
    So only 3x.

    Ahh but but but say the ICE fan boys……let’s talk about using a Tesla supercharger - energy rate is substantially higher - I don’t have numbers at hand but last time I did the math it was only minimally cheaper than gas.

    See I told you so they said …… but but but what about all the free EV chargers say the EV proponents. Yep that’s true, I often “fill up” my EV at a “free” charger. Free for me but who’s actually paying cos it’s not truly free.

    Ah f$#k it - can’t believe I even bothered to write all this - its blazingly obvious that unless you are an idiot or live in a place with wildly expensive electricity AND wildly cheap gas which one is cheaper to run.

    Now Spanky actually asks the right question above - what about ROI? Do the operating cost savings actually make economic sense

    Hell, I don’t know - not sure how to compare vehicles like to like - it’s essentially apples vs oranges at this point - so I’m not going to extend the brain energy to try.
    Bravo my good man, bravo.

    Big picture: the additional value-add of EV's is less time spent scheduling/getting oil changes and getting gas (for a vast majority of your driving days), not to mention the proven environmental benefit if you need a new car. The benefit of waking up every morning with a "full tank" is pretty damn nice. Your time is valuable, probably quite a bit more than $.13/mi.

  10. #1235
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    One of my cars needs an oil change. Thereís two inches of snow/crust on the frozen mud right now.

  11. #1236
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
    Cars are consumables.
    People seem to forget that.

  12. #1237
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    Every pro Uber cabbie around here is driving a 5-10 year old Prius, and it's not because they want to live dangerously with a battery replacement.

  13. #1238
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    The new i7 looks pretty awesome.

    "I don't pretend to have all the answers, and I think there's something to be said for that" -One For The Road

    Brain dead and made of money.

  14. #1239
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garbowski View Post
    Every pro Uber cabbie around here is driving a 5-10 year old Prius, and it's not because they want to live dangerously with a battery replacement.
    Yep, not to mention "battery failure" covers a pretty wide range. For a lot of batteries, they'll just have reduced range, rather than catastrophic failure.

  15. #1240
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    Reduced range is a major problem for EV's though.

    This whole conversation is getting ridiculous. It is comical for people to argue that EV's, which had an average sale price of 66k in 2022 (compared to 48k for ICE), are in any way remotely affordable. And brushing aside battery issues as not a big deal because ICE cars require oil changes is the icing on the cake.

    And the reliability argument gets shot here: high mileage Tesla requires at least three batteries and 8!!! motors. Owner is contemplating switching brands which says a lot. So much for the ICE engines are going to fail more often.

    https://thedriven.io/2022/06/15/tesl...itch-to-lucid/

    I bet dollars to donuts I could get my Tundra to a million miles on way less than 8 engine replacements and the original gas tank.

    But the dentists on TGR are going to say hey a BMW or Mercedes depreciates a bunch also so Tony the plumber better shut the fuck up and get on board with the electric revolution.
    Live Free or Die

  16. #1241
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdironRider View Post
    Reduced range is a major problem for EV's though.

    This whole conversation is getting ridiculous. It is comical for people to argue that EV's, which had an average sale price of 66k in 2022 (compared to 48k for ICE), are in any way remotely affordable. And brushing aside battery issues as not a big deal because ICE cars require oil changes is the icing on the cake.

    And the reliability argument gets shot here: high mileage Tesla requires at least three batteries and 8!!! motors. Owner is contemplating switching brands which says a lot. So much for the ICE engines are going to fail more often.

    https://thedriven.io/2022/06/15/tesl...itch-to-lucid/

    I bet dollars to donuts I could get my Tundra to a million miles on way less than 8 engine replacements and the original gas tank.

    But the dentists on TGR are going to say hey a BMW or Mercedes depreciates a bunch also so Tony the plumber better shut the fuck up and get on board with the electric revolution.
    I think it's ridiculous going the other way - to assume that a new tech is going to be cheap is silly, not to mention using a brand new carmaker as an example. For some, range anxiety will be an issue now and in the future - for others it doesn't matter as they'll be doing <100 miles a day 99% of the time. There are a few points there:
    1. There's a foundational need to reduce reliance on fossil fuels and at least allow for different mechanisms to power transportation. You can argue public transit or whatever, but BEVs let us largely use the same infrastructure (highways, roads etc.) with only a switch to the vehicle type.
    2. They are early state - they cannot replace 100% of the function of all ICE motors and may never do so, but there's a good chance they can do 80+% given that electric mowers and lawn equipment is very viable and electric cars are going fine for most use cases.
    3. The shift is also being pushed by automakers as it vastly simplifies engineering and service requirements, meaning they can cut a ton of engineering staff/vendors while also reducing reliance on dealers as they shift to more direct models that let them capture more direct profit (see: ford blue)
    4. Prices will go down in time. We're on probably the 2nd wave of EV buyers right now, and the infrastructure is still being built out for full market adoption. So you're correct that it's not for everyone - yet. Just as pow skis aren't for early season, it ain't time for full BEV yet.

    No one gives a shit about your Tundra, which is incredibly inefficient for the power/weight/function in order to pay for that reliability (yay toyota).

  17. #1242
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    How are states addressing tax revenue for road maintenance and whatever else gets funded by gasoline taxes? I haven't looked at it any. Just wondering, because an electric car charging at the owner's home wouldn't be assessed any taxes under the current taxes that are all "at the pump" type assessments.
    Quote Originally Posted by powder11 View Post
    if you have to resort to taking advice from the nitwits on this forum, then you're doomed.

  18. #1243
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    Increased registration costs is one way.

  19. #1244
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    Some states charge annual registration rate (say $200) for any non commercial BEV, other states like CA have a sliding scale (75-300$ I think) depending on the car’s value.

    It’s not particularly complicated.

  20. #1245
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    Quote Originally Posted by schuss View Post
    I think it's ridiculous going the other way - to assume that a new tech is going to be cheap is silly, not to mention using a brand new carmaker as an example. For some, range anxiety will be an issue now and in the future - for others it doesn't matter as they'll be doing <100 miles a day 99% of the time. There are a few points there:
    1. There's a foundational need to reduce reliance on fossil fuels and at least allow for different mechanisms to power transportation. You can argue public transit or whatever, but BEVs let us largely use the same infrastructure (highways, roads etc.) with only a switch to the vehicle type.
    2. They are early state - they cannot replace 100% of the function of all ICE motors and may never do so, but there's a good chance they can do 80+% given that electric mowers and lawn equipment is very viable and electric cars are going fine for most use cases.
    3. The shift is also being pushed by automakers as it vastly simplifies engineering and service requirements, meaning they can cut a ton of engineering staff/vendors while also reducing reliance on dealers as they shift to more direct models that let them capture more direct profit (see: ford blue)
    4. Prices will go down in time. We're on probably the 2nd wave of EV buyers right now, and the infrastructure is still being built out for full market adoption. So you're correct that it's not for everyone - yet. Just as pow skis aren't for early season, it ain't time for full BEV yet.

    No one gives a shit about your Tundra, which is incredibly inefficient for the power/weight/function in order to pay for that reliability (yay toyota).
    I, and the vast majority of consumers, really struggle with the entire concept of the EV only being sufficient for 80% of use cases. That in turn requires 2 vehicles, twice the maintenance etc. Nevermind the inherent fact that having two cars is going to completely offset any environmental gains.

    These are problems that are never going to overcome. And that is where people very much give a shit about a Tundra (or Rav4, etc ICE vehicle).
    Live Free or Die

  21. #1246
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    If you don't have a place to plug into overnight, an EV doesn't work very well right now. (Apartment residents in a city, for example.)
    Quote Originally Posted by powder11 View Post
    if you have to resort to taking advice from the nitwits on this forum, then you're doomed.

  22. #1247
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdironRider View Post
    I, and the vast majority of consumers, really struggle with the entire concept of the EV only being sufficient for 80% of use cases. That in turn requires 2 vehicles, twice the maintenance etc. Nevermind the inherent fact that having two cars is going to completely offset any environmental gains.
    Not quite. If I had 1 gasser and 1 EV, the routine maintenance would be significantly reduced overall aside from the things you can't get away from, ie tires, suspension, coolant, wiper fluid, etc.

    I think having 2 normal cars is a PITA. I'd much rather have an EV for city duty and the occasional (well planned) road trip, and keep a gas powered wagon around for true cross-country capability. OR just rent a car for the occasional road trips. That's actually probably be much cheaper overall anyway.

    I think the whole EV vs ICE debate is kind of silly though. People seem to be arguing staunchly for one OR the other as if there's no middle ground. The beauty of today's current market is now we actually have a pretty decent variety, so just pick the vehicle that makes the most sense for you and your situation. Live in the country with no charging network? You can still get ICE vehicles all day long. Never leave the city? An EV makes all the sense in the world for that situation. Especially if you have a garage with a 220 outlet. Then there's the whole PHEV category that can work well for either situation.

  23. #1248
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdironRider View Post
    I, and the vast majority of consumers, really struggle with the entire concept of the EV only being sufficient for 80% of use cases. That in turn requires 2 vehicles, twice the maintenance etc. Nevermind the inherent fact that having two cars is going to completely offset any environmental gains.

    These are problems that are never going to overcome. And that is where people very much give a shit about a Tundra (or Rav4, etc ICE vehicle).
    ďProblems that will never be overcomeĒ, ďreally struggle with the entire conceptĒ.

    Ok. You like your ICE Tundra, canít understand that technology evolves, canít get the concept that EVs may or may not be an end state, cant comprehend a one EV one ICE/PHEV household, etc

    We get it.

    There is an entire thread about trucks if you want to extol their virtues.

    Frankly itís amazing someone is in here trying to defend an ICE truck as being financially prudent versus EVs when they donít even make sense against ICE alternatives.

    I donít own a truck and periodically rent one to accomplish some routine task. Itís amazingly simple and financially has saved me tons of money in gas, purchase cost, maintenance, etc.

  24. #1249
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    Quote Originally Posted by MontuckyFried View Post
    Not quite. If I had 1 gasser and 1 EV, the routine maintenance would be significantly reduced overall aside from the things you can't get away from, ie tires, suspension, coolant, wiper fluid, etc.

    I think having 2 normal cars is a PITA. I'd much rather have an EV for city duty and the occasional (well planned) road trip, and keep a gas powered wagon around for true cross-country capability. OR just rent a car for the occasional road trips. That's actually probably be much cheaper overall anyway.

    I think the whole EV vs ICE debate is kind of silly though. People seem to be arguing staunchly for one OR the other as if there's no middle ground. The beauty of today's current market is now we actually have a pretty decent variety, so just pick the vehicle that makes the most sense for you and your situation. Live in the country with no charging network? You can still get ICE vehicles all day long. Never leave the city? An EV makes all the sense in the world for that situation. Especially if you have a garage with a 220 outlet. Then there's the whole PHEV category that can work well for either situation.
    The problem is states have already codified laws banning ICE vehicles (new sales in CA post 2035). You aren't overcoming these issues just because there is an end date, which is my entire beef. Governments are forcing a hand 90+ percent of consumers know damn well makes things worse for them.

    The vast majority of consumers are bringing in their vehicle to a mechanic for routine maintenance anyways. Just eliminating an oil change does nothing to affect the consumers day to day life, which still requires a trip to the shop every 5-10k miles.
    Live Free or Die

  25. #1250
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldnew_guy View Post
    “Problems that will never be overcome”, “really struggle with the entire concept”.

    Ok. You like your ICE Tundra, can’t understand that technology evolves, can’t get the concept that EVs may or may not be an end state, cant comprehend a one EV one ICE/PHEV household, etc

    We get it.

    There is an entire thread about trucks if you want to extol their virtues.

    Frankly it’s amazing someone is in here trying to defend an ICE truck as being financially prudent versus EVs when they don’t even make sense against ICE alternatives.

    I don’t own a truck and periodically rent one to accomplish some routine task. It’s amazingly simple and financially has saved me tons of money in gas, purchase cost, maintenance, etc.
    Thermodynamics is a thing and cannot be changed.

    My Tundra is just my example, substitute some Ford or other Toyota ICE vehicle of your preference for all I care. It doesn't change the cost limitations of EVs, and you are never, yes never, overcoming the charging problem. Physics is real and immutable.
    Live Free or Die

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