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  1. #26
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Zurich, Switzerland
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    5,521

    What Touring Boot Am I Looking For?

    The F1 is pretty soft imo. Softer than the Backland.

    Quote Originally Posted by MyNameIsAugustWest View Post
    Headed to Boot Pro in Ludlow, VT tomorrow to try on Backland Carbon and Hawx Ultra 130 XTD. One goes up better and is lighter, the other goes down better and is a little heavier (300g per boot) but ultimately its about the fit. We'll see.
    A Backland Carbon with a Intuition ProTour LV is a decent middle ground between the two. You can usually grab used liners here for 80 or so. I like the newer powerstraps from Dynafit boots. Ask around and you might be able to get one for free.

  2. #27
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
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    4,986
    Quote Originally Posted by MyNameIsAugustWest View Post
    Results of yesterday's boot shopping; I didn't have my footbeds so these are just initial thoughts:

    Scarpa F1: They put me in a 27.5 (same shell as 28.). This boot has a 305mm BSL. Incredible fit out of the box; very snug all over but no pressure points; right big toe was just touching the liner; left big toe did not reach the liner but the fit felt so snug I don't know that my foot would slide forward. If you open the cabrio away from the rivets they're that fiddly to get into. Incredible walk mode compared to the alpine boots with walk mode that I'm used to. Flex seemed pretty progressive for such a light boot. I did not even notice the forward lean (see comments below on the Hawx Ultra XTD 130).

    Atomic Backland Carbon (27.5): fit was ok out of the box but these boots feel more like nordic boots than alpine boots. They are very low and don't seem like they would support my lack of skiing skills. Liner is very thin, almost no adjustability there. I've seen in other threads (maybe on Wildsnow?) where people have managed to stuff Intuitions into them and added a booster strap to shore them up. That's all well and good but I don't want to spend an extra $200+ to fix a brand new boot. Crossed off my list.

    Atomic Hawx Ultra XTD 130: They need to shorten the name of this boot; my fingers are tired from having to type all of that. Fit out of the box was similar to the Backland. OK, but not as good as the F1. Despite being a narrower last, these boots felt more roomy width-wise than the F1s. I attribute this to the liners. The F1 comes with an intuition Pro Tour liner; the XTD 130's liner is a little more substantial than the Backland's but not much. If my research is correct, this is how Atomic shaves 200g per boot off of the XTD 120. The XTD 130 felt very light despite being 250g heavier than the F1s. Walk mode was very good. Since we don't do a lot of flat touring here in VT, I'm not sure the extra ROM of the Scarpa is such a big deal. After about 15 minutes in the boot (sitting, standing, flexing, walking) I started to feel some discomfort on the instep of the right boot. This is where I find the heat mold-ability very interesting. I like that I could ski these inbounds (I do have inbounds skis with compatible bindings). This is where it gets weird - I noticed the forward lean in these almost immediately. They felt like they were forcing me forward even though the stated forward lean is something like 13* (I think the F1 is something like 20*). I'm guessing it was toe/heel delta but I can't back that up with any facts. I just noticed the forward lean in those way more than I did in the Scarpas. I'm an old-school skier and forward lean does not bother me (I think the Lange Banshee XL1000s I skied in college had almost 30* of forward lean. Definitely still on my short list.

    Next Steps:
    I'm trying to find a place that has Zero Gs in stock. I definitely want to try them on and see how they compare to the Scarpas and Atomics. I also have to go back to Boot Pro with my foot beds to see how they change the fit dynamics of the F1s and XTD 130s. I'm doing some volunteer work at Magic Mountain today so won't get back out until Sunday.

    Of note - the XTD 130s are this year's model and thus have a full-price only option of $799. The F1s are last year's boot with a price of $700 minus 30%. That's a significant price difference.
    If the F1 fits snugly all around then you don't have a narrow heel, per your original post.
    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    the situation strikes me as WAY too much drama at this point

  3. #28
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
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    Inside the Circle
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    Your opinions are a little abrasive. You've never seen my feet. In fact I do have narrow heels/ankles (several of the most reputable bootfitters on the east coast all agree on that point). The F1s felt snug all over. That is all.

  4. #29
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Fairhaven
    Posts
    35
    There might not be much room to work with adjusting the liner in the Backlands but the shell is so easy to get a good fit that you should be making changes there instead. Both of my feet are close to 285mm from heel to the longest toe and I split board in a pair of 27.5 Backlands that have been shell-molded and punched for length and sixth toe and they fit more more comfortably than my mountaineering boots. I also have a pair of 28.5 Backland Carbons that I bought to ski in. I've done my best to shell-mold them at home but without a convection oven I don't think I've put enough heat into them to truly get them to stretch as much as I want. I have a pair of Intuition Pro Tour liners in them which was my plan from the start. I wanted the second pair to be a bit warmer than the first which they are but the smaller pair fits much better. I'm a terrible skier (much better snowboarder) but the Backland Carbons support my backcountry skiing and a I can put up with them for a few lift laps when I'm in the mood. One thing about the Pro Tour liners is that one of the lace loops doesn't have much padding under it and gives me a serious pressure point on my instep.

  5. #30
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    whistler
    Posts
    977
    I just came here to say that as an XTD 130 owner, I also disliked the forward lean. Having said that, I got the alternate dog bone for the lean lock and am now running it at 11 degrees and it's pretty good. The stock dogbone is adjstable 15 - 13 degrees. I believe it is supposed to come stock on 13 but worth checking. Also worth asking the shop if they have the alternate dogbone in stock or need to order. My shop ordered it and threw it in for free as they feel it should just come with the boot. I agree, but am still grateful.

  6. #31
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
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    4,986
    Quote Originally Posted by MyNameIsAugustWest View Post
    Your opinions are a little abrasive. You've never seen my feet. In fact I do have narrow heels/ankles (several of the most reputable bootfitters on the east coast all agree on that point). The F1s felt snug all over. That is all.
    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    the situation strikes me as WAY too much drama at this point

  7. #32
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    西 雅 圖
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    3,161
    Quote Originally Posted by nickel View Post
    The stock dogbone is adjstable 15 - 13 degrees. I believe it is supposed to come stock on 13 but worth checking.
    I am pretty sure the stock boot comes at 15 degrees and can be set to 17. The optional "dogbone" gets it to 13.

  8. #33
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    278
    Quote Originally Posted by gregL View Post
    I am pretty sure the stock boot comes at 15 degrees and can be set to 17. The optional "dogbone" gets it to 13.
    Per the boot product mgr this is correct.


    "After about 15 minutes in the boot (sitting, standing, flexing, walking) I started to feel some discomfort on the instep of the right boot. This is where I find the heat mold-ability very interesting. I like that I could ski these inbounds (I do have inbounds skis with compatible bindings). This is where it gets weird - I noticed the forward lean in these almost immediately. They felt like they were forcing me forward even though the stated forward lean is something like 13* (I think the F1 is something like 20*). I'm guessing it was toe/heel delta but I can't back that up with any facts. I just noticed the forward lean in those way more than I did in the Scarpas. I'm an old-school skier and forward lean does not bother me (I think the Lange Banshee XL1000s I skied in college had almost 30* of forward lean. Definitely still on my short list."

    I have a pair of XTDs, and have noticed the same issue. I've come to believe there are two issues causing this. Mine are set at 13* with the optional dogbone.

    The first and biggest is the way the outsole is designed. The WTR sole on this boot acts like being in a high delta binding. The feel of being forward is far less in a non XTD Ultra with Din soles.
    I've only skied mine in a Shift which needs a lot of shim beneath the toe to correct. For tech binding use you probably need be on the low delta side of things, but the pin delta maybe very different than the sole delta.

    The second issue is the footboard ramp at the back quarter of the board was a little severe. This was easily rectified by grinding it.

    Note that I am very sensitive to binding delta and an alpine binding that is more than 2mm higher in the heel than the toe makes me spastic.

    Thuese issues almost made me give up on the boot, but there is so much right for me that I am persevering.

    Next time you try the boot on, try elevating the toe of the boot sole a little with a shim and see if the problem goes away for you. I'd also look to make sure it hasn't been reset to 17*.

    If you can you might also try it in a ski with the binding you are planning to use and see if it fixes the issue or makes it worse.

    For me, in combination with the way the Shift lowers the AFD and makes the delta issue worse, if I knew in advance, I probably would not have bought this combination.
    If IRC the delta of the Shift is 8mm with a DIN sole(GregL, is mm correct?.) It gets far higher when the AFD is lowered.

    I'm curious if this years XTD which has switched to Gripwalk is any different.

    YMMV

  9. #34
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Rossland BC
    Posts
    1,091
    Narrow heel, low instep, ample forefoot width = Salomon Slab Xalp.

  10. #35
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    whistler
    Posts
    977
    my mistake on the lean numbers, you guys are correct. stock options 15/17 and optional dogbone gets you 13/19

    This discussion around boot sole delta is really interesting and makes me want to do some experimenting...

  11. #36
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    North Vancouver/Whistler
    Posts
    11,307
    Quote Originally Posted by kootenayskier View Post
    Narrow heel, low instep, ample forefoot width = Salomon Slab Xalp.
    Arcteryx Procline too

  12. #37
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    voting in seattle
    Posts
    4,048
    Quote Originally Posted by LeeLau View Post
    Arcteryx Procline too
    Cheap too:
    https://www.evo.com/shop/ski/boots/arcteryx

  13. #38
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Not Brooklyn
    Posts
    6,101
    Quote Originally Posted by XavierD View Post
    Do they still break?

    Sent from my Pixel using TGR Forums mobile app

  14. #39
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
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    Today, I visited Totem Pole in Ludlow, another reputable shop with a good bootfitter. This time, I brought my custom footbeds. Toran put the Zero G Scout, Fischer Ranger 130 and the Head Kore 1 on my feet. Although I wanted to love the Zero G, the fact was, the volume in that boot is just too much for my duck feet. The liner has very little adjustability so I was looking at shims to take up the space above my foot in the instep area. The Fischer was a very similar fit. The Ranger series can't be vacuum fit (according to the shop) so I was looking at the same option for the Ranger 130. The Kore 1 was a great fitting boot, easily the best of all I had tried over the last couple of days but noticeably heavier and the walk mode wasn't as good; not even close. The Kore1 was more like the boots I was abandoning although lighter, I guess.

    I then went back to Boot Pro; I had my footbeds with me, so I expected the boots on my short list there (Scarpa F1 and Atomic XTD 130) to feel different. This time, I did a side-by-side comparison of the XTD 130 and the F1 (one on each foot) and the forward lean was definitely greater in the XTD 130. Nate, the boot fitter said he could see it just from the way I was standing in the boots. Boot Pro did not have the alternate "dogbone" but he said he could get it. I still had some vertical movement in my forefoot in the Atomics but the Scarpas still felt very snug and locked in.

    Note to Reckless Toboggan: With the footbeds supporting my exceptionally flat feet and not allowing my feet to collapse inward, the heel/ankle of the Scarpa was not as snug. So maybe we're both right....

    I felt like the locked-in forefoot fit of the Scarpas would be enough to overcome the slightly too large heel pocket. There was no doubt that the Atomics had a tighter heel fit but they were so loose in the forefoot I thought I would be flailing around inside of them even with the shell heating...I don't think they actually get smaller in that process. I told Nate to fire up the oven and we proceeded to bake the Intuitions for the Scarpas. The result was a fit that feels remarkably like the fit I have with the Mobe's. Honestly, they're totally locked in with the Boa wire loose. We talked about possibly working with the heel issue later after I skied in them a couple of times. Boot Pro has a life of the boot fit guarantee. They'll even make new footbeds for $139 for as long as I own the shells.

    I'm happy with the result of my search and thanks to all that offered their opinions and advice. I know this turned into kind of a blog but hopefully it will help someone in the future looking for the same thing I was.

  15. #40
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
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    voting in seattle
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    Were you trying the ZeroG and KORE on I’m the same size? The Kore is way roomier than any of the other boots listed. I can ski it in relative comfort without any modifications. The same is not true for any others listed.

  16. #41
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
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    Yes, both 27.5. As noted, the liner was much more substantial and that's what led to the feeling that the Heads were more snug overall. I wasn't commenting on shell fit.

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