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  1. #176
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    Not specifically talking about boats, which I know little about, but in general and IME some regulations are for theoretical problems but most are because of something bad that happened.

  2. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bromontane View Post
    Roasting people in court is no way to resurrect the dead, particularly in something as rare & impossible to predict as this.
    Thatís up the families to decide.

    They did not die wingsuit flying, they were asleep in their bunks.

  3. #178
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    If maritime law is applicable in this case which is very likely, the victims families should procede carefully before paying any attorney huge sums to go down the cruel path of 1838 justice; It was written entirely to protect the wealthy owners of ships from crew, passengers, and owners of lost cargo.
    Scientists now have decisive molecular evidence that humans and chimpanzees once had a common momma and that this lineage had previously split from monkeys.

  4. #179
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    Ah geez. Finally popping fun here. The latest knees is very sad indeed.

    I knew some of the deceased. Two minors attended school where I work. One was likely to be the first in her family to graduate high school and go off to college. In the brief time where our paths crossed I met both of these lovely young ladies. Our community is still reeling from this. A friends of my son, at another school, lost her mother. I never knew her mom, but she is a super sweet and awesome 8 year old. All of this is terribly terribly sad.

    I donít know about down in SB, but a lot of folks here in SC are starting to lose faith in this operation. Maybe it is just a part of grief and mourning, but this latest news has set a lot of us back a few days. People are starting to wonder if this was avoidable and due to negligence. That is a hard pill to swallow, especially when it hits your youth community directly.

  5. #180
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    I'd like to believe that if a battery or anything in another room of my house caught fire in the middle of the night, the smoke alarms would wake us before every path of escape for everyone was engulfed in flames. I get that boats are smaller and tighter with fewer escape options, but damn.. I'm hesitant to put this on some kid or young adult making $20/hr or whatever that may or may not have been sleeping when they were supposed to be on anchor watch. I'd also be hesitant to blame the employer/owners unless it comes to light that the smoke alarms were not in proper working order. Other than that, it's just bad, really bad shit happened and people died, but no one person should shoulder the blame for this.
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  6. #181
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    i'll bet the lawyers will be disagreeing with you on this point.....

  7. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ottime View Post
    Ah geez. Finally popping fun here. The latest knees is very sad indeed.

    I knew some of the deceased. Two minors attended school where I work. One was likely to be the first in her family to graduate high school and go off to college. In the brief time where our paths crossed I met both of these lovely young ladies. Our community is still reeling from this. A friends of my son, at another school, lost her mother. I never knew her mom, but she is a super sweet and awesome 8 year old. All of this is terribly terribly sad.

    I donít know about down in SB, but a lot of folks here in SC are starting to lose faith in this operation. Maybe it is just a part of grief and mourning, but this latest news has set a lot of us back a few days. People are starting to wonder if this was avoidable and due to negligence. That is a hard pill to swallow, especially when it hits your youth community directly.
    Oh man. Thatís just terrible to hear.




    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

  8. #183
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    Crew sleeping despite requirement for night watch

    Escape routes both into same inferno and difficult

    I think company is in trouble here.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Benny Profane View Post
    Keystone is fucking lame. But, deadly.

  9. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by SumJongGuy View Post
    I'd like to believe that if a battery or anything in another room of my house caught fire in the middle of the night, the smoke alarms would wake us before every path of escape for everyone was engulfed in flames. I get that boats are smaller and tighter with fewer escape options, but damn.. I'm hesitant to put this on some kid or young adult making $20/hr or whatever that may or may not have been sleeping when they were supposed to be on anchor watch. I'd also be hesitant to blame the employer/owners unless it comes to light that the smoke alarms were not in proper working order. Other than that, it's just bad, really bad shit happened and people died, but no one person should shoulder the blame for this.
    Iím no merchant marine, but I believe sleeping on watch is keel hauling offense.

    Iím also curious to see the results of The toxicology reports. Not making any judgement about what anyone was smoking that night, but being a legal state, Iíd say chances are high someone is going to fail. It wonít help.

  10. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ottime View Post
    Ah geez. Finally popping fun here. The latest knees is very sad indeed.

    I knew some of the deceased. Two minors attended school where I work. One was likely to be the first in her family to graduate high school and go off to college. In the brief time where our paths crossed I met both of these lovely young ladies. Our community is still reeling from this. A friends of my son, at another school, lost her mother. I never knew her mom, but she is a super sweet and awesome 8 year old. All of this is terribly terribly sad.

    I donít know about down in SB, but a lot of folks here in SC are starting to lose faith in this operation. Maybe it is just a part of grief and mourning, but this latest news has set a lot of us back a few days. People are starting to wonder if this was avoidable and due to negligence. That is a hard pill to swallow, especially when it hits your youth community directly.
    In SB, the news of the no-watchman was no bueno. It's tragic for everyone involved. Even after Truth Aquatic's gets out of the years and years of future litigation, nothing will be the same.

  11. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cono Este View Post
    Iím no merchant marine, but I believe sleeping on watch is keel hauling offense.

    Iím also curious to see the results of The toxicology reports. Not making any judgement about what anyone was smoking that night, but being a legal state, Iíd say chances are high someone is going to fail. It wonít help.
    All the crew and captain are required to be in a drug testing pool. More likely that nobody was dumb enough to be high or have weed on the boat. Thatís a pretty low bar in my industry.
    But Ellen kicks ass - if she had a beard it would be much more haggard. -Jer

  12. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chugachjed View Post
    All the crew and captain are required to be in a drug testing pool. More likely that nobody was dumb enough to be high or have weed on the boat. That’s a pretty low bar in my industry.
    They already tested them for booze, everyone was clean. It would be hard for me to believe all crew would be clean of THC, just given the industry...and, well, California.

    Even the rescue boat in the harbor heard an explosion, not sure someone awake could have prevented the inferno, but; it sure would not have hurt.

    That said, NTSB will release its full report in 12-18 months...a long waiting game for salivating lawyers.

  13. #188
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    Reg says someone stands watch so that what happened wouldn't happen.

    Crew members all asleep either because the assigned watch was derelict or the master was derelict by not assigning someone to the watch.

    Bromontane: "Yea but rules are dumb because nobody will follow them."

    FFS

    "Social normalization of deviance means that people within the organization become so much accustomed to a deviant behavior that they don't consider it as deviant, despite the fact that they far exceed their own rules for the elementary safety" -Diane Vaughan

    Ever heard the phrase "running a tight ship" or similar? Where/how/why do you think that term originated?

    This goes back to the idea of a "top notch dive op" as judged by satisfied customers. Hey we see it in healthcare... good hospital? I dunno, how quickly did you get pain meds and was the nurse nice? Or what is their hand washing compliance rate and their hospital acquired infection rate? Is that a good airline because the stewardess gave you a free drink or because they have excellent training and high safety compliance?
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  14. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by SumJongGuy View Post
    I'd like to believe that if a battery or anything in another room of my house caught fire in the middle of the night, the smoke alarms would wake us before every path of escape for everyone was engulfed in flames. I get that boats are smaller and tighter with fewer escape options, but damn..
    It's not just that boats are smaller and tighter, they are often constructed and finished with materials that give off thick toxic smoke when they smolder and burn. In contrast, even though residential and commercial buildings still burn the building materials are required to have a fire-resistance rating for x amount of time so occupants can escape.

  15. #190
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    My point is that it's disingenuous to (A) be cool with something for a generation but suddenly become self-righteous & litigious when things go awry. (B) The deadly thing here is batteries that spontaneously combust alongside cramped death traps. Crew members not overcoming these (impossible?) odds is the scapegoat. Emotion the underlying logical operator.

    Crucifying the crew won't bring back the dead or be effective at bringing about change. Honest acknowledgement of (A) & (B) leads to a much more productive outcome than haranguing people with PTSD for not preventing something whose preventability we really don't understand.

    Of course, why introspect when you can simplify to the point of meaningless groupthink.

  16. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summit View Post
    Ever heard the phrase "running a tight ship" or similar? Where/how/why do you think that term originated?
    the seams were well caulked and the boat didn't leak; something that could be fixed ashore but not so much at sea and could cause potentially perilous problems at sea.

  17. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bromontane View Post
    My point is that it's disingenuous to (A) be cool with something for a generation but suddenly become self-righteous & litigious when things go awry. (B) The deadly thing here is batteries that spontaneously combust alongside cramped death traps. Crew members not overcoming these (impossible?) odds is the scapegoat. Emotion the underlying logical operator.

    Crucifying the crew won't bring back the dead or be effective at bringing about change. Honest acknowledgement of (A) & (B) leads to a much more productive outcome than haranguing people with PTSD for not preventing something whose preventability we really don't understand.

    Of course, why introspect when you can simplify to the point of meaningless groupthink.
    Safety watches are there to cover for when things inevitably go wrong. This concept, at sea, predates any modern government that drafted regulations codifying watch requirements.

    A. Is Normalization of Deviance. You cure that by no longer tolerating it. Making an example is usually part of that process. 34 bodies might be example enough without further punitive action, but then shouldn't have the worry of such outcomes sufficed in the first place? I think they used to "hang ye from the yard arm" in the old days. Now it is probably getting fined or having a license revoked.

    B. No conclusive proof that this was a battery fire. IF it was, don't think someone might try to address that issue by drafting a set of instructions on what is or is not permitted relating to battery handling... you could call it... I dunno.. a regulation? Of course, you have to follow it for it to be effective, perhaps with inspections and consequences for failing to abide?
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  18. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunfree View Post
    the seams were well caulked and the boat didn't leak; something that could be fixed ashore but not so much at sea and could cause potentially perilous problems at sea.
    Indeed, that attention to detail and strict adherence is demanded by the master, and it is considered a good thing for a ship.
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  19. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bromontane View Post
    summitexpert.exe
    404 Bromontane's legitimate counterargument not found
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  20. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bromontane View Post
    My point is that it's disingenuous to (A) be cool with something for a generation but suddenly become self-righteous & litigious when things go awry. (B) The deadly thing here is batteries that spontaneously combust alongside cramped death traps. Crew members not overcoming these (impossible?) odds is the scapegoat. Emotion the underlying logical operator.

    Crucifying the crew won't bring back the dead or be effective at bringing about change. Honest acknowledgement of (A) & (B) leads to a much more productive outcome than haranguing people with PTSD for not preventing something whose preventability we really don't understand.

    Of course, why introspect when you can simplify to the point of meaningless groupthink.
    Umm, do think everyone knew they didnt post a night watch?

  21. #196
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    an anchor watch in the today's modern world:

    Scientists now have decisive molecular evidence that humans and chimpanzees once had a common momma and that this lineage had previously split from monkeys.

  22. #197
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    Yeah that's the thing ^^^the regs are not clear on the definition of "anchor watch" that I have seen. In the old days yeah somebody had to be awake but now GPS will alert you that you're dragging if you set it, which is the same function somebody being awake used to perform. However it was reported in this thread that their certificate of operation required somebody to be awake, so, yeah.

    The owner of the company is reported as saying a crew member checked things half an hour before the fire. Whether that's true or not I don't know. But if a GPS anchor watch is set and somebody checks shit from time to time, that would normally be plenty. However if their certificate required different...

  23. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by iceman View Post
    Yeah that's the thing ^^^the regs are not clear on the definition of "anchor watch" that I have seen.
    https://dictionary.thelaw.com/anchor-watch/

    Anchor Watch

    THELAW.COM LAW DICTIONARY & BLACK'S LAW DICTIONARY 2ND ED.

    A watch, consisting of a small number of men, (from one to four,) kept constantly on deck while the vessel is riding at single anchor, to see that the stoppers, painters, cables, and buoy ropes are ready for immediate use. The Lady Franklin, 2 Lowell, 220, Fed. Cas. No. 7,984.

  24. #199
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    A dictionary is not law. It makes absolutely zero difference to anything what a dictionary says. Prior cases may or may not be relevant to this case.

    But anyways all of that is about assigning blame and I think sometimes shit just happens and this is one of those times. Nobody needs to be crucified because somebody may possibly have fallen asleep in a protected anchorage 40 feet from shore.

    The chargers and batteries on the other hand...yeah that's relevant and important

  25. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by iceman View Post
    A dictionary is not law. It makes absolutely zero difference to anything what a dictionary says. Prior cases may or may not be relevant to this case.

    But anyways all of that is about assigning blame and I think sometimes shit just happens and this is one of those times. Nobody needs to be crucified because somebody may possibly have fallen asleep in a protected anchorage 40 feet from shore.

    The chargers and batteries on the other hand...yeah that's relevant and important


    It's a law dictionary. Cited with a case number....

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