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  1. #201
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    Mtngirl, Esq.
    "timberridge is terminally vapid" -- a fortune cookie in Yueyang

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtngirl79 View Post
    It's a law dictionary. Cited with a case number....
    But see only the words in the actual laws matter. Not what a dictionary says about them and not the possibly-relevant case law they cite.

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bromontane View Post
    My point is that it's disingenuous to (A) be cool with something for a generation but suddenly become self-righteous & litigious when things go awry. (B) The deadly thing here is batteries that spontaneously combust alongside cramped death traps. Crew members not overcoming these (impossible?) odds is the scapegoat. Emotion the underlying logical operator.

    Crucifying the crew won't bring back the dead or be effective at bringing about change. Honest acknowledgement of (A) & (B) leads to a much more productive outcome than haranguing people with PTSD for not preventing something whose preventability we really don't understand.

    Of course, why introspect when you can simplify to the point of meaningless groupthink.
    I could not disagree with you anymore. Who was cool with it for 40yrs? The 17 yr old girl?

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by iceman View Post
    A dictionary is not law. It makes absolutely zero difference to anything what a dictionary says. Prior cases may or may not be relevant to this case.

    But anyways all of that is about assigning blame and I think sometimes shit just happens and this is one of those times. Nobody needs to be crucified because somebody may possibly have fallen asleep in a protected anchorage 40 feet from shore.

    The chargers and batteries on the other hand...yeah that's relevant and important
    I disagree.

    Do you think if someone was awake at least one person might have made it out?

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by iceman View Post
    But see only the words in the actual laws matter. Not what a dictionary says about them and not the possibly-relevant case law they cite.
    Actually, the law attempts to define words and phrases because that makes the law consistant. A law dictionary contains legal definitions... then cites the case or cases where it was decided.

    At least that's my understanding. Plenty of lawyers here to tell me I'm wrong. You aren't one of them.

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cono Este View Post
    I disagree.

    Do you think if someone was awake at least one person might have made it out?
    Point taken. It's possible.

  7. #207
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    at least they died doing what they loved

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtngirl79 View Post
    It's a law dictionary. Cited with a case number....
    It's not meaningless, but a law dictionary doesn't mean it's good law. And a "case number" doesn't change that. Especially a case number from an obviously very old case.
    "fuck off you asshat gaper shit for brains fucktard wanker." - Jesus Christ
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  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtngirl79 View Post
    Actually, the law attempts to define words and phrases because that makes the law consistant. A law dictionary contains legal definitions... then cites the case or cases where it was decided.

    At least that's my understanding. Plenty of lawyers here to tell me I'm wrong. You aren't one of them.
    You're wrong. And I am one of those lawyers, and I am 100% confident in this one (unlike many legal questions where the answer isn't clear).

    A law dictionary is a useful thing to have, but it is not "law". In the best of circumstances, a law dictionary is "persuasive" authority. The case law underlying the definition itself can be binding precedent, but the only way to know that is to look at the case, and check that case for whether it is still good law. It may have been overruled by a later case, or it may simply no longer apply for any number of reasons. One of which could be regulations passed after it was decided, or superseding facts.

    But under no circumstances can you cite to Black's Law Dictionary and say "this has the answer, case closed".
    "fuck off you asshat gaper shit for brains fucktard wanker." - Jesus Christ
    "She was tossing her bean salad with the vigor of a Drunken Pop princess so I walked out of the corner and said.... "need a hand?"" - Odin

  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcski View Post
    at least they died doing what they loved
    Iíll admit, I love sleep.

  11. #211
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    Danno fires shot across bow of pirates.

    Paging Mtn Girl to the divorce thread before all hell breaks loose.

  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by iceman View Post
    Point taken. It's possible.
    I think the bigger mistake is not being asleep, but all being in an enclosed wheel house at the same time when the fire started. It had to get pretty hot to wake them up.

  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danno View Post
    You're wrong. And I am one of those lawyers, and I am 100% confident in this one (unlike many legal questions where the answer isn't clear).

    A law dictionary is a useful thing to have, but it is not "law". In the best of circumstances, a law dictionary is "persuasive" authority. The case law underlying the definition itself can be binding precedent, but the only way to know that is to look at the case, and check that case for whether it is still good law. It may have been overruled by a later case, or it may simply no longer apply for any number of reasons. One of which could be regulations passed after it was decided, or superseding facts.

    But under no circumstances can you cite to Black's Law Dictionary and say "this has the answer, case closed".

    goddamnit no wonder

  14. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bromontane View Post
    Roasting people in court is no way to resurrect the dead, particularly in something as rare & impossible to predict as this.
    Really?
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  15. #215
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    I know right? Don Rickles up there making mean unfunny jokes about this, nobody needs that.

  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danno View Post
    You're wrong. And I am one of those lawyers, and I am 100% confident in this one (unlike many legal questions where the answer isn't clear).

    A law dictionary is a useful thing to have, but it is not "law". In the best of circumstances, a law dictionary is "persuasive" authority. The case law underlying the definition itself can be binding precedent, but the only way to know that is to look at the case, and check that case for whether it is still good law. It may have been overruled by a later case, or it may simply no longer apply for any number of reasons. One of which could be regulations passed after it was decided, or superseding facts.

    But under no circumstances can you cite to Black's Law Dictionary and say "this has the answer, case closed".
    So it's a starting point... like wikipedia. Nobody besides a 6th grader would cite it, but it usually gives you a good overview along with sources to start with...

    Probably, the laws that govern the license for commercial vessels define anchor or night watch. Usually in statues they have a section that defines things.

    Probably a lawyer could look it up, but that would be like 300 dollars an hour.

    My point was that its not an arbitrary term left to interpretation.

    The phrase is clearly defined in relation to commercial vessels and licensing requirements somewhere.

  17. #217
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    Cali Dive Boat tragedy

    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    BTW I read somewhere that the US Navy says right and left while the rest of the world uses port and starboard. I know we have some sailors who can tell me whether that's correct.
    That is absolutely false. The US Navy uses the terms Port and Starboard when referring to the navigation of a ship.

    They do use right and left for non-navigation related items, "Sailor ! Hold that signal flag in your right hand !" (they don't call it your starboard hand...)

    Signed,
    former Naval Lieutenant Harry


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  18. #218
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    yeah that was wack, come on goat, do better

  19. #219
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    Harry, what about Red, Right, Returning?






    Whether navigational bouys are green to port and red to starboard or the opposite depends entirely upon what region of the world you are navigating. The IALA established two regions: Region A and Region B.


    Region A consists of Europe, Australia, New Zealand, parts of Africa and most of Asia. When entering a harbor in this region, marks to port are red and marks to starboard are green.

    Region B consists of North America, Central America and South America, plus the Philippines, Japan and Korea. When entering a harbor in this region, marks to port are green and marks to starboard are red (red, right, return!).
    Scientists now have decisive molecular evidence that humans and chimpanzees once had a common momma and that this lineage had previously split from monkeys.

  20. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry View Post
    That is absolutely false. The US Navy uses the terms Port and Starboard when referring to the navigation of a ship.

    They do use right and left for non-navigation related items, "Sailor ! Hold that signal flag in your right hand !" (they don't call it your starboard hand...)

    Signed,
    former Naval Lieutenant Harry


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    Absolutely false. Is that different from false? Anyway, thank you.
    Quote Originally Posted by iceman View Post
    yeah that was wack, come on goat, do better
    Hey, I read it right here on TGR--discussion a couple of years ago about a collision between a naval vessel and a merchant ship. If you can't trust TGR, what can you trust?

  21. #221
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    we try to keep the standards high here

  22. #222
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    Cali Dive Boat tragedy

    Quote Originally Posted by iceman View Post
    we try to keep the standards high here
    If by that you mean, the people that are setting them are baked, then I agree.

  23. #223
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    I am not baked enough apparently. Fortunately I ave the means to rectify that.

  24. #224
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    so you do rso suppositories?

  25. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by Svengali View Post
    Harry, what about Red, Right, Returning?






    Whether navigational bouys are green to port and red to starboard or the opposite depends entirely upon what region of the world you are navigating. The IALA established two regions: Region A and Region B.


    Region A consists of Europe, Australia, New Zealand, parts of Africa and most of Asia. When entering a harbor in this region, marks to port are red and marks to starboard are green.

    Region B consists of North America, Central America and South America, plus the Philippines, Japan and Korea. When entering a harbor in this region, marks to port are green and marks to starboard are red (red, right, return!).
    Does the US Navy use righty-tightly lefty-loosely?


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

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