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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtngirl79 View Post
    It's a law dictionary. Cited with a case number....
    It's not meaningless, but a law dictionary doesn't mean it's good law. And a "case number" doesn't change that. Especially a case number from an obviously very old case.
    "fuck off you asshat gaper shit for brains fucktard wanker." - Jesus Christ
    "She was tossing her bean salad with the vigor of a Drunken Pop princess so I walked out of the corner and said.... "need a hand?"" - Odin
    "everybody's got their hooks into you, fuck em....forge on motherfuckers, drag all those bitches across the goal line with you." - (not so) ill-advised strategy

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtngirl79 View Post
    Actually, the law attempts to define words and phrases because that makes the law consistant. A law dictionary contains legal definitions... then cites the case or cases where it was decided.

    At least that's my understanding. Plenty of lawyers here to tell me I'm wrong. You aren't one of them.
    You're wrong. And I am one of those lawyers, and I am 100% confident in this one (unlike many legal questions where the answer isn't clear).

    A law dictionary is a useful thing to have, but it is not "law". In the best of circumstances, a law dictionary is "persuasive" authority. The case law underlying the definition itself can be binding precedent, but the only way to know that is to look at the case, and check that case for whether it is still good law. It may have been overruled by a later case, or it may simply no longer apply for any number of reasons. One of which could be regulations passed after it was decided, or superseding facts.

    But under no circumstances can you cite to Black's Law Dictionary and say "this has the answer, case closed".
    "fuck off you asshat gaper shit for brains fucktard wanker." - Jesus Christ
    "She was tossing her bean salad with the vigor of a Drunken Pop princess so I walked out of the corner and said.... "need a hand?"" - Odin
    "everybody's got their hooks into you, fuck em....forge on motherfuckers, drag all those bitches across the goal line with you." - (not so) ill-advised strategy

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcski View Post
    at least they died doing what they loved
    I’ll admit, I love sleep.

  4. #204
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    Danno fires shot across bow of pirates.

    Paging Mtn Girl to the divorce thread before all hell breaks loose.

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by iceman View Post
    Point taken. It's possible.
    I think the bigger mistake is not being asleep, but all being in an enclosed wheel house at the same time when the fire started. It had to get pretty hot to wake them up.

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danno View Post
    You're wrong. And I am one of those lawyers, and I am 100% confident in this one (unlike many legal questions where the answer isn't clear).

    A law dictionary is a useful thing to have, but it is not "law". In the best of circumstances, a law dictionary is "persuasive" authority. The case law underlying the definition itself can be binding precedent, but the only way to know that is to look at the case, and check that case for whether it is still good law. It may have been overruled by a later case, or it may simply no longer apply for any number of reasons. One of which could be regulations passed after it was decided, or superseding facts.

    But under no circumstances can you cite to Black's Law Dictionary and say "this has the answer, case closed".

    goddamnit no wonder

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bromontane View Post
    Roasting people in court is no way to resurrect the dead, particularly in something as rare & impossible to predict as this.
    Really?
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  8. #208
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    I know right? Don Rickles up there making mean unfunny jokes about this, nobody needs that.

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danno View Post
    You're wrong. And I am one of those lawyers, and I am 100% confident in this one (unlike many legal questions where the answer isn't clear).

    A law dictionary is a useful thing to have, but it is not "law". In the best of circumstances, a law dictionary is "persuasive" authority. The case law underlying the definition itself can be binding precedent, but the only way to know that is to look at the case, and check that case for whether it is still good law. It may have been overruled by a later case, or it may simply no longer apply for any number of reasons. One of which could be regulations passed after it was decided, or superseding facts.

    But under no circumstances can you cite to Black's Law Dictionary and say "this has the answer, case closed".
    So it's a starting point... like wikipedia. Nobody besides a 6th grader would cite it, but it usually gives you a good overview along with sources to start with...

    Probably, the laws that govern the license for commercial vessels define anchor or night watch. Usually in statues they have a section that defines things.

    Probably a lawyer could look it up, but that would be like 300 dollars an hour.

    My point was that its not an arbitrary term left to interpretation.

    The phrase is clearly defined in relation to commercial vessels and licensing requirements somewhere.

  10. #210
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    Cali Dive Boat tragedy

    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    BTW I read somewhere that the US Navy says right and left while the rest of the world uses port and starboard. I know we have some sailors who can tell me whether that's correct.
    That is absolutely false. The US Navy uses the terms Port and Starboard when referring to the navigation of a ship.

    They do use right and left for non-navigation related items, "Sailor ! Hold that signal flag in your right hand !" (they don't call it your starboard hand...)

    Signed,
    former Naval Lieutenant Harry


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    "Zee damn fat skis are ruining zee piste !" -Oscar Schevlin

    "Hike up your skirt and grow a dick you fucking crybaby" -what Bunion said to Harry at the top of The Headwaters

  11. #211
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    yeah that was wack, come on goat, do better

  12. #212
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    Harry, what about Red, Right, Returning?






    Whether navigational bouys are green to port and red to starboard or the opposite depends entirely upon what region of the world you are navigating. The IALA established two regions: Region A and Region B.


    Region A consists of Europe, Australia, New Zealand, parts of Africa and most of Asia. When entering a harbor in this region, marks to port are red and marks to starboard are green.

    Region B consists of North America, Central America and South America, plus the Philippines, Japan and Korea. When entering a harbor in this region, marks to port are green and marks to starboard are red (red, right, return!).
    Scientists now have decisive molecular evidence that humans and chimpanzees once had a common momma and that this lineage had previously split from monkeys.

  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry View Post
    That is absolutely false. The US Navy uses the terms Port and Starboard when referring to the navigation of a ship.

    They do use right and left for non-navigation related items, "Sailor ! Hold that signal flag in your right hand !" (they don't call it your starboard hand...)

    Signed,
    former Naval Lieutenant Harry


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
    Absolutely false. Is that different from false? Anyway, thank you.
    Quote Originally Posted by iceman View Post
    yeah that was wack, come on goat, do better
    Hey, I read it right here on TGR--discussion a couple of years ago about a collision between a naval vessel and a merchant ship. If you can't trust TGR, what can you trust?

  14. #214
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    we try to keep the standards high here

  15. #215
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    Cali Dive Boat tragedy

    Quote Originally Posted by iceman View Post
    we try to keep the standards high here
    If by that you mean, the people that are setting them are baked, then I agree.

  16. #216
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    I am not baked enough apparently. Fortunately I ave the means to rectify that.

  17. #217
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    so you do rso suppositories?

  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Svengali View Post
    Harry, what about Red, Right, Returning?






    Whether navigational bouys are green to port and red to starboard or the opposite depends entirely upon what region of the world you are navigating. The IALA established two regions: Region A and Region B.


    Region A consists of Europe, Australia, New Zealand, parts of Africa and most of Asia. When entering a harbor in this region, marks to port are red and marks to starboard are green.

    Region B consists of North America, Central America and South America, plus the Philippines, Japan and Korea. When entering a harbor in this region, marks to port are green and marks to starboard are red (red, right, return!).
    Does the US Navy use righty-tightly lefty-loosely?


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  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtngirl79 View Post
    So it's a starting point... like wikipedia. Nobody besides a 6th grader would cite it, but it usually gives you a good overview along with sources to start with...

    Probably, the laws that govern the license for commercial vessels define anchor or night watch. Usually in statues they have a section that defines things.

    Probably a lawyer could look it up, but that would be like 300 dollars an hour.

    My point was that its not an arbitrary term left to interpretation.

    The phrase is clearly defined in relation to commercial vessels and licensing requirements somewhere.
    No, it's not even a starting point.

    Look, as a lawyer who doesn't practice maritime law and knows nothing about this area of law, I wouldn't dream of calling it a starting point, or claiming that because it's defined in the law dictionary that it must be defined in statute/regs and not be an ambiguous term. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. A law dictionary doesn't mean much except in limited circumstances.

    Statutes and regs often do have a definitions section. You'd be amazed at how often those sections don't define the term that is important to you when you're looking at an issue. And even when they do, the definition is frequently unsatisfying or not dispositive, and you still spend time arguing about what the definition means.

    If you want to keep insisting that the definition in the law dictionary is the answer here or even a starting point, knock yourself out. But I'm telling you the law dictionary means very little. In my 15+year career, I've had one, maybe two issues where the definition there was up for debate, and even for those it was one citation among many, because when it comes to legal arguments, you can't hang your hat on what Black's Law Dictionary says. And it's very rarely where any lawyer would turn when starting to research a new issue.
    "fuck off you asshat gaper shit for brains fucktard wanker." - Jesus Christ
    "She was tossing her bean salad with the vigor of a Drunken Pop princess so I walked out of the corner and said.... "need a hand?"" - Odin
    "everybody's got their hooks into you, fuck em....forge on motherfuckers, drag all those bitches across the goal line with you." - (not so) ill-advised strategy

  20. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry View Post
    That is absolutely false. The US Navy uses the terms Port and Starboard when referring to the navigation of a ship.

    They do use right and left for non-navigation related items, "Sailor ! Hold that signal flag in your right hand !" (they don't call it your starboard hand...)

    Signed,
    former Naval Lieutenant Harry


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
    So it’s not “right full rudder”?

  21. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by billyk View Post
    So it’s not “right full rudder”?
    Reverse starboard engine

    One ping only, vasili
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  22. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summit View Post
    Reverse starboard engine

    One ping only, vasili
    Yeah, I know starboard and port are used for other things, but I think the helmsman rudder commands are what people point to when they say there’s a difference between the US Navy and other Navies. But, like goat, I only have second hand info.

  23. #223
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    I was in the coast guard and we certainly used port and starboard for helm commands.
    But Ellen kicks ass - if she had a beard it would be much more haggard. -Jer

  24. #224
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    Unlike left and right, "port" and "starboard" refer to fixed locations on a vessel.
    Scientists now have decisive molecular evidence that humans and chimpanzees once had a common momma and that this lineage had previously split from monkeys.

  25. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summit View Post
    Reverse starboard engine

    One ping only, vasili
    One
    Ping


    Onleh
    Remind me. We'll send him a red cap and a Speedo.

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