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  1. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by iceman View Post
    <snip> Taking on debt without a clear plan to repay it is idiotic.
    In general I agree witcha. But a lot of these folks were in their early 20's (i.e. really dumb) and it's somewhat unreasonable for them to have had a "clear plan"...

    Their boomer parents probably told them they could be anything they wanted and make whatever amount of money they wanted.


  2. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by iceman View Post
    My views on education are somewhat nuanced, my views on debt are not. Taking on debt without a clear plan to repay it is idiotic.
    Yup, but we were raised in different times. Growing up I was told you saved and if needed, family kicked in to help you buy the big stuff cash. Over time that was no longer possible for a major purchase like a home and that obviously no longer works for 99% of the people for even an education. Times have changed. We have good family friends from Sweden, their children left the USA and went to University in Sweden, as it was basically free. They ended up staying there. Sure their taxes are higher but they appreciate the strong social safety net and who can blame them. The way shit is now in this country, I often suggest to my kids to bale as it sucks. ULL, I am sorry you are in this situation, as I strongly disagree with kids having to be burdened with school debt.
    Quote Originally Posted by leroy jenkins View Post
    I think you'd have an easier time understanding people if you remembered that 80% of them are fucking morons.
    That is why I like dogs, more than most people.

  3. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by liv2ski View Post
    Yup, but we were raised in different times. Growing up I was told you saved and if needed, family kicked in to help you buy the big stuff cash. Over time that was no longer possible for a major purchase like a home and that obviously no longer works for 99% of the people for even an education. Times have changed. We have good family friends from Sweden, their children left the USA and went to University in Sweden, as it was basically free. They ended up staying there. Sure their taxes are higher but they appreciate the strong social safety net and who can blame them. The way shit is now in this country, I often suggest to my kids to bale as it sucks. ULL, I am sorry you are in this situation, as I strongly disagree with kids having to be burdened with school debt.
    Wealthiest nation in the history of the world. Can't afford universal healthcare. Can't afford higher education for its citizens. Can't afford a decent public transportation system.

    I call bullshit.

  4. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by iceman View Post
    Taking on debt without a clear plan to repay it is idiotic.
    Depends. A mortgage on a primary residence in a non-recourse state isn't much of risk to the borrower--you can just walk away from that shit. Student loans taken out after the 1998 and 2005 revisions to bankruptcy law? You'd better be damn sure you'll be able to pay those off.

  5. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dantheman View Post
    Depends. A mortgage on a primary residence in a non-recourse state isn't much of risk to the borrower--you can just walk away from that shit. Student loans taken out after the 1998 and 2005 revisions to bankruptcy law? You'd better be damn sure you'll be able to pay those off.
    But how can you be damn sure? When a person chooses to go to college or grad school, they don't have jobs lined up for after. They take on debt with the expectation that they will get a job. Now, one can argue that they should choose a cheap school yada yada yada (and the boomers love to pompously make that one, even though college cost like 50 cents when they were going) and shouldn't major in art, and those are valid points, but graduating from a good college or grad school without parental assistance and no debt is damn hard to do. Not impossible, but not easy.
    "fuck off you asshat gaper shit for brains fucktard wanker." - Jesus Christ
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  6. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danno View Post
    But how can you be damn sure? When a person chooses to go to college or grad school, they don't have jobs lined up for after. They take on debt with the expectation that they will get a job. Now, one can argue that they should choose a cheap school yada yada yada (and the boomers love to pompously make that one, even though college cost like 50 cents when they were going) and shouldn't major in art, and those are valid points, but graduating from a good college or grad school without parental assistance and no debt is damn hard to do. Not impossible, but not easy.
    I think a lot of people up until fairly recently were entirely ignorant of the 1998/2005 bankruptcy law changes so that's a big part of how we got to these levels of education debt. As to your main point, if you're financing medical school, a degree in a high-paying engineering field, etc. you can be pretty confident that investment will pay off long-term. At the other end of the spectrum, going $100k into the hole for a degree in interpretive dance is a lot less likely to work out well. Most people are going to fall somewhere in between those extremes, but the bottom line is that student loan debt is, AFAIK, incredibly difficult to get forgiven or discharged. I'm not defending that, I find it patently ridiculous that it's easier to get frivolous CC debt discharged than student loan debt, but sadly it's our current reality.

    ETA: Of course that doesn't even touch on the outright predatory schools and lenders that were (and probably still are) widespread and ensnared countless numbers of desperate people trying to better their lives. I have nothing but sympathy for those folks.

  7. #232
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    I lay in bed at night and cry because I’m pretty sure I’m going to send my kids to college right before the higher education racket comes crumbling down.
    Charlie, here comes the deuce. And when you speak of me, speak well.

  8. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by liv2ski View Post
    Yup, but we were raised in different times. Growing up I was told you saved and if needed, family kicked in to help you buy the big stuff cash. Over time that was no longer possible for a major purchase like a home and that obviously no longer works for 99% of the people for even an education. Times have changed. We have good family friends from Sweden, their children left the USA and went to University in Sweden, as it was basically free. They ended up staying there. Sure their taxes are higher but they appreciate the strong social safety net and who can blame them. The way shit is now in this country, I often suggest to my kids to bale as it sucks. ULL, I am sorry you are in this situation, as I strongly disagree with kids having to be burdened with school debt.
    Don’t cry for me Argentina. Cry for the US economy that I’m not pumping money into right now. You know how many snowmobiles I’d have if I had no school debt?

  9. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by skaredshtles View Post
    Wealthiest nation in the history of the world. Can't afford universal healthcare. Can't afford higher education for its citizens. Can't afford a decent public transportation system.

    I call bullshit.
    Yup- "can't afford it" is just bullshit for "don't want to prioritize that." No problem paying for the world's militaries and bailouts to billionaires, but God forbid we put in place a reasonable system that protects most average Americans.

  10. #235
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    Student Loans

    Nothing had more of an impact on student loans, and the cost of higher education in general, than the United States government deciding to guarantee student loans.

    When you can put bad debt to a third party, the result is always the same - reckless borrowing and sky-high pricing for the product in question.

  11. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by CP99 View Post
    Nothing had more of an impact on student loans, and the cost of higher education in general, than the United States government deciding to guarantee student loans.

    When you can put bad debt to a third party, the result is always the same - reckless borrowing and sky-high pricing for the product in question.
    Yep. A friend of mine is the assistant dean at a major Midwest university; she’s been beating this drum for 15 years. Her school has zero incentive to keep prices low, since Uncle Sam will guarantee payment. It’s similar to healthcare price inflation; insurance and guarantees fuck up what should be a simple supply and demand transaction.

  12. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by ULLRismyco-pilot View Post
    Already did that with a cash out refi a few years ago and paid off a good chunk. Could do it again, but the rate would be higher than 3.8%. We also refinanced a good chunk of debt and got it lower but still not that low. We expect to have the higher interest SL debt paid off in a few years and this will help that goal. Rolling it into the mortgage would cost far more in the long run and it would always be there till we sold. This way we can pay it off in a few years and be done and still have a low mortgage payment. I’ve run the numbers for a lot of different scenarios.

    As far as equity vs student loans. We have the equity, but at some threshold the rate goes up substantially. So It doesn’t work out financially.

    Just to be clear, we are talking SL debt in the multiple six figures, not just 30-40K like you read horror stories about. Always laugh at those articles.
    My wife almost broke half a million in student loan debt. Definitely max out refinanced the house to get some of the interest rate down from the original 8.5%. Thankfully shes paying it down at a good clip.

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  13. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by liv2ski View Post
    I have to call "Bull Shit". The thing is you obviously did receive good financial advice (maybe it wasn't available to you) like this: Go to a JC the first two years (=cheap) and then transfer to your Uni while getting a solid degree in a field you can stand and that pays well, while living at home, all on the parents dime. I will admit my youngest went away to school out the gate, which cost us more, hence why her older sister received more financial help to buy her 1st home. I try and keep it all equal.

    I am not criticizing you. We all have different situations and my kids have been pretty lucky (as have we) to be in much better situations than most. I apologize if I annoyed you.
    Good luck going to JC for two years and then getting into a top college and then a top grad school. However, it all depends on the kid and their ambitions. JC to state is a great option for teachers, police officers etc but these days, they get student loan forgiveness so it may matter less what their student debt is. If you wanna get into plumbing/electrical or another job that doesn't require getting a competitive masters degree then you should aim to graduate college debt free.


    Or fuck it and hustle which can make up for a lack degrees. Remember that just as many C students become millionaires as A students.
    Last edited by VTeton; 11-21-2019 at 06:51 AM.

  14. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by VTeton View Post
    Good luck going to JC for two years and then getting into a top college and then a top grad school. However, it all depends on the kid and their ambitions. JC to state is a great option for teachers, police officers etc but these days, they get student loan forgiveness so it may matter less what their student debt is. If you wanna get into plumbing/electrical or another job that doesn't require getting a competitive masters degree then you should aim to graduate college debt free.


    Or fuck it and hustle which can make up for a lack degrees. Remember that just as many C students become millionaires as A students.
    This is exactly the point I made last night. When the government starts guaranteeing and forgiving loans, people view the amount of debt as irrelevant.

    Don't read this as me calling out VTeton. It's just one of the more obvious examples of the consequences of government involvement in the education space.

  15. #240
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    Half a mill in student loans? That right there is why medicare for all is never going to happen. The doctors have bills to pay with at least 4-5k a month (take home) going to that nut.

    I grew up in a blue collar family that pushed the whole college is worth it at any cost as the only financial advice that mattered. I just paid that shit off 15 years later with lessons learned. When I signed that loan paperwork I had a grand in graduation checks and not a care in the world and didn't really pay attention. That is what 18 year old kids do, but I should have known better and was an adult. It is like middle school math ultimately.

    Then there are guys like this fucker that make you realize you can't fix stupid no matter what you do. A million plus in student loans and the jabroni is out financing Tesla's and houses he can't afford. https://www.wsj.com/articles/mike-me...pen-1527252975

    That guy does not deserve getting his loans forgiven. All of these people with loans are adults, they made a decision, now pay it back. A million for a college education is not someone getting scammed, it is someone being reckless.

    That point about community colleges though is right. Good fucking luck getting into any decent graduate program (aka one worth the loans) going that route. I don't think many graduate programs are worth it unless you are going to a top 10 school (and the network that comes with it), and those schools cost money.
    Live Free or Die

  16. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdironRider View Post
    Then there are guys like this fucker that make you realize you can't fix stupid no matter what you do. A million plus in student loans and the jabroni is out financing Tesla's and houses he can't afford. https://www.wsj.com/articles/mike-me...pen-1527252975
    On top of that article, the guy is basically a full time vacationer with mandatory Sprinter Van: https://www.instagram.com/hukesnow/

    I'd be too ashamed to be a Gram Influencer after that article, but shame is probably an 'ok, boomer' emotion.

  17. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by zion zig zag View Post
    On top of that article, the guy is basically a full time vacationer with mandatory Sprinter Van: https://www.instagram.com/hukesnow/

    I'd be too ashamed to be a Gram Influencer after that article, but shame is probably an 'ok, boomer' emotion.
    Can anyone copy-paste that article? I don't have a WSj subscription....can't justify it on top of NYT and LA times subs.

  18. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdironRider View Post

    All of these people with loans are adults, they made a decision, now pay it back. A million for a college education is not someone getting scammed, it is someone being reckless.

    . I don't think many graduate programs are worth it unless you are going to a top 10 school (and the network that comes with it), and those schools cost money.
    I'm with you on the first point, and that's my main problem with the idea of forgiving all student loan debt. If I lived frugally, worked part time to minimize debt, and paid back my loans, I'm offended that taxpayers would be footing the bill for reckless borrowers who didn't make that effort.

    On the second point, I think that's a bit extreme. Are you saying that med schools that are ranked #11 through 20 (or law, etc - ie grad programs that are likely to lead to good pay) are not worth taking loans for? If instead we're talking about less lucrative grad programs like a masters in psychology, in a third tier small state school, then I think the student/ borrower should give that a lot of consideration when looking at loan repayment plans.
    Quote Originally Posted by powder11 View Post
    if you have to resort to taking advice from the nitwits on this forum, then you're doomed.

  19. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Chupacabra View Post
    I'm with you on the first point, and that's my main problem with the idea of forgiving all student loan debt. If I lived frugally, worked part time to minimize debt, and paid back my loans, I'm offended that taxpayers would be footing the bill for reckless borrowers who didn't make that effort.

    On the second point, I think that's a bit extreme. Are you saying that med schools that are ranked #11 through 20 (or law, etc - ie grad programs that are likely to lead to good pay) are not worth taking loans for? If instead we're talking about less lucrative grad programs like a masters in psychology, in a third tier small state school, then I think the student/ borrower should give that a lot of consideration when looking at loan repayment plans.
    Of course there is some nuance to it, as in a medical degree has a higher likelihood to pay off in the long run vs. psychology or something.

    However, every lower tiered graduate that I see succeed does so more based on their ability to hustle than the degree from some regional school. I think those cats could have gone into sales with just an undergrad and probably done just as well, without giving up years of lost earnings and the resulting increased debt load. They are workers ultimately in the sense that they are willing to put the effort in to succeed. The school they paid for didn't make it happen.

    Whereas if you go to Harvard law, you aren't going there because the books are any different, you are going to network and have doors open up for you that wouldn't at San Diego State, just by being there. That is what the money buys.
    Live Free or Die

  20. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by CP99 View Post
    Nothing had more of an impact on student loans, and the cost of higher education in general, than the United States government deciding to guarantee student loans.

    When you can put bad debt to a third party, the result is always the same - reckless borrowing and sky-high pricing for the product in question.
    +1
    And welcome, CP

    Quote Originally Posted by AdironRider View Post

    That guy does not deserve getting his loans forgiven. All of these people with loans are adults, they made a decision, now pay it back. A million for a college education is not someone getting scammed, it is someone being reckless.
    Agreed. I have a hard time seeing most students as victims. Most of the people I went to school with chose to coast and 'live the college experience' citing that all their bills were paid with loans. Maybe they didn't read/understand the fine print, but that's on them.

    While I support loan forgiveness for trades that meet the 'public service' requirements (nurse, teacher, DA, public defender, etc), I don't support #vanlife and interpretive dance degrees being funded by tax dollars.

  21. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdironRider View Post
    Of course there is some nuance to it, as in a medical degree has a higher likelihood to pay off in the long run vs. psychology or something.

    However, every lower tiered graduate that I see succeed does so more based on their ability to hustle than the degree from some regional school. I think those cats could have gone into sales with just an undergrad and probably done just as well, without giving up years of lost earnings and the resulting increased debt load. They are workers ultimately in the sense that they are willing to put the effort in to succeed. The school they paid for didn't make it happen.

    Whereas if you go to Harvard law, you aren't going there because the books are any different, you are going to network and have doors open up for you that wouldn't at San Diego State, just by being there. That is what the money buys.
    I think we are on the same page on this.

    Grad programs that don't provide a needed level of education or certification to do the job (like med school to be a doctor) are the ones I think are most questionable in their cost worthiness. A masters in comp lit is something you do for your own learning, experience, fun, etc.

    I'd like to see government repayment for trade school student loans - eg go through a the program on loans, graduate, get your cert, get apprenticed, work X number of years in the trade (where X could be adjusted based on community need for that skilled trade), and your loans are forgiven.
    Quote Originally Posted by powder11 View Post
    if you have to resort to taking advice from the nitwits on this forum, then you're doomed.

  22. #247
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    The government started "guaranteeing" student loans well before student loans became the huge problem they are today - back in the 1950s. Changes in bankruptcy laws in 1978?, 1998, and 2005 that effectively guaranteed student loans by the life of the borrower played more of a role. But that doesn't play into teh "government is bad about everything politics of 2019"

    Ask that midwest school admin person how many GI bill students they get. there's way more to educational distortion than just loans.

    course not a fucking thing is going to change, just like with real estate. once you've bought in there's no incentive to change. markets gotta go up and that's what we are going to do.

  23. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by muted View Post
    Can anyone copy-paste that article? I don't have a WSj subscription....can't justify it on top of NYT and LA times subs.
    https://outline.com/MLDTJx

    I was looking for it also and found someone on reddit who said you just need to put outline.com/ in front of the url.

  24. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by markb View Post
    https://outline.com/MLDTJx

    I was looking for it also and found someone on reddit who said you just need to put outline.com/ in front of the url.
    Thanks.

    Had to hit refresh to see he is indeed a dentist.

  25. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by markb View Post
    https://outline.com/MLDTJx

    I was looking for it also and found someone on reddit who said you just need to put outline.com/ in front of the url.
    Thanks, awesome!

    Looks like he is in the top 100 of all students for debt, yet "The government repayment plan affords the Meru family a comfortable life." Looks like he snowboards a lot more than just on weekends and goes on vacation often too. poor guy, I hope it all works out for him.

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