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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
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    Angleset - breathing new life or lipstick on a pig?

    A few years ago I bought an original carbon Tallboy that was heavily upgraded and I continued to upgrade. It has a Pike up front, Carbon enve wheels, 1x, a dropper, and a DPS shock. It fulfills the majority of my needs, with the exception being when things get chunkier/rowdier, and occasionally on tight switchbacks. The bike feels like it gets overwhelmed/skittish through the chunder and you really notice the steep head angle on tight switchbacks (I'm estimating it at 69 degrees with the Pike). It climbs really well, feels snappy and accelerates quickly, and I really enjoy riding it. A few rides ago, however, I began feeling like the geo might be holding me back a bit - not getting through the chunder very cleanly

    I test rode an Evil Following for 3 days and liked some of it - particularly how capable it felt in the rowdier conditions. In fact, all descending felt really good and I found that I rode a lot faster on the descent. I did not like how it climbed. To get the suspension supple enough to match the TB, it became pretty soft/bobby on the way up. As a result, I think I'm leaning against the Following. I have a few other ideas out there for other bikes to try (thanks Toast), but have been considering what a -1 or 1.5 degree angleset might do to this bike's handling. It would put the HA at about 68 (or less), steepen the SA a touch while seeing minimal BB drop. I'm leaning this way partially due to cost and partially due to (generally) really liking how my bike rides except in those conditions. I'm not sure I could sell the TB and pick up a bike with similar parts (carbon wheels, pike, carbon frame, etc.) without spending a lot more money. Thoughts from the collective?

    Seth

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
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    1,147
    Skip angleset and look into offset bushings.

    Way cheaper way to do what you're trying. If it doesn't accomplish what you wanted, you are ~$40 down vs over ~$100

  3. #3
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    Putting aside everything I said in the pm, the answer is n+1. There's no such thing as a bike that does everything well. It's all a series of tradeoffs. So get a bigger, burlier bike and use it on rides where such a bike is appropriate. Keep the Tallboy for smoother, climbier rides. An angleset in the tallboy isn't going to turn it into a great descender, but it'll make it a bit worse at the things that bike is actually good at (i.e. climbing).
    Last edited by toast2266; 08-16-2019 at 10:38 AM.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
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    Iím kinda in this same position with a V1 Bronson; upgrade vs new build with old parts, vs new bike.

    If you buy a new frame you will have to rebuild the wheels or spend money converting the hubs to new standards.

    Make a spreadsheet. Do the math.
    Option 1 - build with old parts, rebuild wheels, sell frame.
    Option 2 - buy a mid level build and swap the rims/wheels (pay to rebuild) and sell the TB with the mid level wheels
    Option 3 - buy a high level build and sell the complete TB.

    For me, the best bang for buck is buying a mid level GX build and swapping a few key items.

    One thing worth noting is SC will release the Tallboy 4 at the end of the month. If the trend of the new SC bikes continues, it will be just as good as a peddler but gain a little weight and gain a lot of descending capability...


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  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
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    502
    1) There's like a 1% chance you could sell an old bike and pick up a new one that rides better for the same or less money, unless you are willing to compromise and go from carbon kool-aid to alloy.
    2) If you have a 2016+ version, you can't use an angleset in your bike. Santa Cruz has started using IS-type headsets, which are incompatible with anglesets. ZS or EC type frames work. If you have an earlier version, don't waste your money.
    3) I think you have one or both suspensions set up poorly. The Evils I've ridden pedal quite well.
    4) Looking at the geo chart on the Tallboy, a lot of bikes released within the last year or so will feel more comfortable climbing and way more stable descending. I'd way rather ride an alloy frame with alloy wheels etc. and modern geometry than one with shitty geometry and all carbon. I picked up an alloy Smuggler frame this winter for $1,000 and it has a 3 degree steeper STA, 2 degree slacker HTA, and 20mm more reach than the Tallboy. There's solid deals to be found on alloy frames on Pinkbike, like Smuggler, Trail Pistol, etc.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
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    5,553
    I went from a TB to an Ibis Ripley LS and havenít looked back. The v4 Ripley is even more slack up front but has an upright seatpost for better everything.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
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    Seth, if you can afford to, N+ 1 (as mentioned by Toast) or, just sell what you have and replace it with something new that you feel hits your sweat spot better.
    Making what amounts to an incremental adjustment to the head angle isn't likely to give you a satisfying end result (on the whole) and is just postponing the inevitable.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
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    Lipstick on pig, ditch da pig and get a modern bike.

    It's like asking if moving the mounting point on your old Volkl Expolsiv's are going to make them perform like a current ski, ain't going to happen.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
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    I recently made the switch from a 2015 tallboy LTC (HTA 69.5) to a Transition Smuggler and I couldnít be happier. I feel like the Smuggler is a bit less efficient on the climb due mostly to suspension design, but itís so much more fun/fast on the downhill that I donít care.

    Itís efficient enough that I havenít really noticed an increase in time that it takes me to climb my normal trails, and I think it climbs techy stuff slightly better. Like I donít have to move my weight around quite as much. I canít imagine bikes getting much better for the normal trail riding that I do.

    My wife thinks itís just new bike confirmation bias, but I have ze data to prove otherwise!

  10. #10
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    Sep 2007
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    Thanks all.

    ZZZ, what year smuggler?

    Seth

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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by sethschmautz View Post
    Thanks all.

    ZZZ, what year smuggler?

    Seth

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    2019...same as the 2018 if you get a chance to try one. Only change I know of is they went from a Fox 34 to a 36.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
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    Saratoga Springs, NY
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    I'm getting ready to sell my Hightower if you want to go that direction. size large. PM if you want more details, don't have time to post it all now.

  13. #13
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    Sep 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by zion zig zag View Post
    2019...same as the 2018 if you get a chance to try one. Only change I know of is they went from a Fox 34 to a 36.
    Toast has suggested that this is a great bike (along with the Hightower) for where we live here in the Flathead Valley, so I'll see if I can drum up one for a ride.

    I'm not getting any younger (40 now), and there are some bigger rides around here that I would love to do. Most of those involve quite a bit of climbing. These are accessible on the TB, and I've grown and learned a lot by riding it. Perhaps the earlier suggestion of looking for a TB3 (or hightower as suggested by Radam) is a good one - finding a bike that will maintain or improve on the climbing ability while also improving the quality of the descending.

  14. #14
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    Jan 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirk View Post
    Lipstick on pig, ditch da pig and get a modern bike.

    It's like asking if moving the mounting point on your old Volkl Expolsiv's are going to make them perform like a current ski, ain't going to happen.
    I doubt there are many modern skis that ski as well as the explosives, except for wider skis in powder.

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  15. #15
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    Jan 2009
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    I had a 2018 specialized Enduro, 66 degrees head angle, and it climbed very well.



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  16. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
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    In a van... down by the river
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    Quote Originally Posted by sethschmautz View Post
    Toast has suggested that this is a great bike (along with the Hightower) for where we live here in the Flathead Valley, so I'll see if I can drum up one for a ride.

    I'm not getting any younger (40 now), and there are some bigger rides around here that I would love to do. Most of those involve quite a bit of climbing. These are accessible on the TB, and I've grown and learned a lot by riding it. Perhaps the earlier suggestion of looking for a TB3 (or hightower as suggested by Radam) is a good one - finding a bike that will maintain or improve on the climbing ability while also improving the quality of the descending.
    Try a Guerilla Gravity if you get a chance...

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Seattle
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    352
    I put an angleset on a 2013 niner rip9 for a couple of years slacking it from ~69 to ~67. It made it better downhill, but it shortened the reach and in the end I was trying to make the bike be something it wasn't. I have since replaced it with a 2018 sentinel and won't look back, the magic of new geometry is as much in increasing the reach as in slacking the head angle. Replace that tallboy and join the revolution. A riply v4, new hightower or sb130 would be good options if you care about going uphill fast. A smuggler or GG will save some cash and not climb as well. A sentinel or similar will smash down hill and climb slowly.

  18. #18
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    Sep 2007
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    Kind of thread drift, but. . .

    Looking at the specs of the original Hightower and the Tallboy 3, it looks like they share the same BB spacing with my TB 1 (73mm), and chainline spec is also shared by all (50mm). I've never tried to convert non-boost to boost, but does this suggest that I could pull all of my existing drivetrain over to one of these frames, and all I'd need to do is install a boostinator on the rear wheel?

    I have sufficient steerer tube on my pike, but would probably extend the travel if going with the HT. I might need a new seatpost.

    Any problems with this strategy?

    Seth

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by sethschmautz View Post
    Kind of thread drift, but. . .

    Looking at the specs of the original Hightower and the Tallboy 3, it looks like they share the same BB spacing with my TB 1 (73mm), and chainline spec is also shared by all (50mm). I've never tried to convert non-boost to boost, but does this suggest that I could pull all of my existing drivetrain over to one of these frames, and all I'd need to do is install a boostinator on the rear wheel?

    I have sufficient steerer tube on my pike, but would probably extend the travel if going with the HT. I might need a new seatpost.

    Any problems with this strategy?

    Seth
    Should mostly work. If you get a new fork, it'll likely be boost, and adapting a post mount brake to a non-boost wheel is annoying. You'll have to space the rotor. If you have centerlock hubs, it won't work.

  20. #20
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    May 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by sethschmautz View Post
    and you really notice the steep head angle on tight switchbacks (I'm estimating it at 69 degrees with the Pike).
    I prefer my old-style geo Mojo SL to the new style Mojo3 for tight switchbacks. Mojo3 has a worse turning radius, and the front wheel wants to flop over more. It also doesn't climb as well as the old Mojo. I seldom ride the SL now but when I sit on it, it just instantly feels like a more natural riding position. Wish that bike didn't have an un-upgradeable 1-1/8 head tube. Dunno. Everyone is into longer/lower/slacker these days, but I haven't noticed much difference for general trail riding except that the bike doesn't climb as well. Can't say I notice much difference descending except for super steep trail sections where the slacker HA of the mojo3 helps. Better suspension has made much more difference with DVO fork on the Mojo3 vs IFP (inferior Fox product) on the MojoSL. Personally I'd rather have a bike that climbs extremely well since that's what I spend the majority of my time doing. I can descend well and have fun on any bike. YMMV of course. If you're trying to decide to upgrade vs new bike, just make sure to test out a bunch of different bikes. Everyone seems to like something different. I've found the DW link bikes seem to climb best overall, and I've liked my Knolly 4x for tech climbing. Others seem to prefer VPP. When you find the right bike for you, you should know it right away.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    502
    Joetron on this forum is selling a medium carbon Smuggler with forks brakes & dropper for $2k. Check that out if you ride a medium.

  22. #22
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    Sep 2007
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    I did. Unfortunately I'm a large. I meant to post in his thread that his bikes are too small...

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  23. #23
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    Dec 2004
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  24. #24
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Cuntecticut
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    In the right circumstances they are great!

    My hardtail is a fat bike with a 2nd skinny wheel set. Kona Wozo frame with a 120mm Bluto and -2* Works headset.

    Turned out to work beautifully! 65* HTA, and shortened up the reach just a smidge, both things I was after.

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