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  1. #26
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    EPIC pass now available at Hunta'

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfelot View Post
    The below cities represent a pretty huge population base where many people who didn’t have an Epic pass may now feel compelled to buy one so they can head west to a destination resort.

    “Located near major metropolitan areas, including New York, Boston, Washington, D.C., Baltimore, Philadelphia, Cleveland, Columbus, St. Louis, Kansas City and Louisville”
    Exactly. Fuck you Vail.
    At this point, Vail Resorts should have to pay big taxes for road improvements/repairs due to wear and tear to I70, with all the tourist traffic they’re sending this way.

  2. #27
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    I'll bet this has something to do with the Sackler family being driven underground. Somehow.

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  3. #28
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    My guess is the epic pass is more expensive than most of the ski resorts they just purchased's season passes so this will essentially price more people out of the sport. I could be wrong though. Will this result in more east coasters traveling west to ski? oh you betcha. Park City has become noticably more busy since they went epic, good thing that place is getting rid of half their parking to put in a more "European" ski village or whatever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Summit View Post
    $269 million... no wonder Keystone can't afford any new bike trail... again...
    From a utard perspective, it seems Vail is moving away from bike trail development on their mountains. Tourists don't really mountain bike I guess. They got rid of the canyons bike park as soon as they took over that resort. They still allow bikes on the few lifts they run in the summer but employing a staff to maintain existing trails or develop new ones? Fagetaboutit

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benny Profane View Post
    I'll bet this has something to do with the Sackler family being driven underground. Somehow.
    I think you are assuming they could give 2 shits.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by BRUTAH View Post
    From a utard perspective, it seems Vail is moving away from bike trail development on their mountains. Tourists don't really mountain bike I guess. They got rid of the canyons bike park as soon as they took over that resort. They still allow bikes on the few lifts they run in the summer but employing a staff to maintain existing trails or develop new ones? Fagetaboutit
    If you have ever been to Whistler in the summer, their base Village is every bit as busy as in the winter and it's all mountain bikers and their family. An expensive set of skis and bindings cost $2,000 while an expensive bike cost $10,000. 750k pairs of alpine skis sold per year in the US while Americans buy 5 million mountain bikes per year. Mountain bikers will spend lots of money but you do have to give them some decent trails with decent maintenance and Whistler does that.

    But I've heard that the CEO of Vail does not like mountain biking and thinks that it's too dangerous. If you only looked at Keystone in their tendency to hire completely inexperienced Trail designers and then no funds for maintenance on a very technical mountain, I can see how one might come to that conclusion. When Katz became CEO in 2006 and still lived in the mountains, Keystone was the only Vail resort with purpose built bike trails, and they were best in state for the time but very technical. One of the Keystone Trail designers went on to build some insane things Silverton that nearly killed people and caused that mountain biking to be shut down. This may have poison to Vail view of biking and they did not open their minds to flow Trails when they came to Colorado brought by the experienced Trail building Crews from the Northwest and British Columbia.

    I was hoping with the purchase of Whistler might enlighten the Vail leadership, but apparently not. The leadership of Whistler quit because Vail did not want to listen to their experience in building the gem that Vail was eager to purchase. I shouldn't be surprised that they couldn't see it with Whistler after they failed to notice Winter Park eating their lunch in terms of biker market share in the Front Range. But when your executives are headquartered in flat boring burbs of a metro and your leadership travel time is spent buying the most boring winter resorts in the country (Whistler aside), when might you have leadership time to explore the market? It's easier to just conclude the bikers aren't a market worth pursuing, despite a future of shortening ski seasons and more summer Mountain tourism.

    But what do I know? I've never worked for the empire nor the bike industry. I'm not even that good of a biker, I just love it as much as skiing is all.

    Vail Resorts Summer? More festivals and let's build a roller coaster! Biking? Just another bullet point in the brochure like an Alpine Slide or a kids trampoline.
    Last edited by Summit; 07-23-2019 at 06:00 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by The SnowShow View Post
    Exactly. Fuck you Vail.
    At this point, Vail Resorts should have to pay big taxes for road improvements/repairs due to wear and tear to I70, with all the tourist traffic they’re sending this way.
    They'll slash all the HR and other finance and operations jobs at all these new acquisitions and drop in their existing model and personnel, some managed remotely. More people will be competing for fewer on site jobs at lower wages. That usually ends up with full time people needing food stamps on our dime so Vail an profit even more..
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLS View Post
    I think you are assuming they could give 2 shits.
    Oh, they do. Recently read a very whiney piece by an heir about how their social life and reputation is in the shitter. Poor baby.

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  8. #33
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    5 million bikes sold includes a couple million Huffy's or the equivalent to Jerry's in Alabama and kids bikes. That is not a good metric.

    Also, it is a young mans game and Vail / ski resorts value add to biking is almost exclusively downhill, which as anyone who has take a good tumble on a downhill trail, is not going to be the venue a 50 year old VP of some regional bank is going to blow his wad on which is Vail's bread and butter. Whistler is whistler for as others have said, they got there first and spend enough money to keep the trails perfect. Not every resort can do this, there are only so many peeps who are going to go there, vs say a Kingdom Trails type venue that costs like 5 bucks, with the same level of trail maintenance.

    Mountain bikers, from what I hear and see everyday, are also buying bikes for 10 grand almost exclusively on high interest credit cards in one of the largest bubbles in recreational sports. It isn't going to last long term IMO. 10 grand for a bike is crazy, and the longevity of most bikes is laughably short and they depreciate to basically 0 within 2 years.

    Meanwhile skiing priced out the dirt bags 20 years ago, and while might be stagnant in terms of growth of skier visits for the most part, the ones that do show up have money to burn with ongoing resources to keep them coming back again and again, well into their 60's and 70's. That is never going to happen with mountain biking.
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  9. #34
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    Mountain biking is dangerous. I mean, Skiing is dangerous, which is the reason why you'll see less and less Boomers, but, MTB can put you into a lazy boy permanently after a certain age.

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  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdironRider View Post
    5 million bikes sold includes a couple million Huffy's or the equivalent to Jerry's in Alabama and kids bikes. That is not a good metric.

    Also, it is a young mans game and Vail / ski resorts value add to biking is almost exclusively downhill, which as anyone who has take a good tumble on a downhill trail, is not going to be the venue a 50 year old VP of some regional bank is going to blow his wad on which is Vail's bread and butter. Whistler is whistler for as others have said, they got there first and spend enough money to keep the trails perfect. Not every resort can do this, there are only so many peeps who are going to go there, vs say a Kingdom Trails type venue that costs like 5 bucks, with the same level of trail maintenance.

    Mountain bikers, from what I hear and see everyday, are also buying bikes for 10 grand almost exclusively on high interest credit cards in one of the largest bubbles in recreational sports. It isn't going to last long term IMO. 10 grand for a bike is crazy, and the longevity of most bikes is laughably short and they depreciate to basically 0 within 2 years.

    Meanwhile skiing priced out the dirt bags 20 years ago, and while might be stagnant in terms of growth of skier visits for the most part, the ones that do show up have money to burn with ongoing resources to keep them coming back again and again, well into their 60's and 70's. That is never going to happen with mountain biking.
    I can't even...
    "fuck off you asshat gaper shit for brains fucktard wanker." - Jesus Christ
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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benny Profane View Post
    Mountain biking is dangerous. I mean, Skiing is dangerous, which is the reason why you'll see less and less Boomers, but, MTB can put you into a lazy boy permanently after a certain age.
    Truth. Most people in my age group (old millennials) already gave the downhill game up and ride cross country.

    You don't need a ski resort to do that.

    The CEO of Vail is many things, but not an idiot. He knows who pays the bills and and it isn't late 20 something mob bros who are going to move onto a different sport after their first real injury. Meanwhile, late 20 something bros that ski will probably still do so for 40 years.
    Live Free or Die

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdironRider View Post
    5 million bikes sold includes a couple million Huffy's or the equivalent to Jerry's in Alabama and kids bikes. That is not a good metric.

    Also, it is a young mans game and Vail / ski resorts value add to biking is almost exclusively downhill, which as anyone who has take a good tumble on a downhill trail, is not going to be the venue a 50 year old VP of some regional bank is going to blow his wad on which is Vail's bread and butter. Whistler is whistler for as others have said, they got there first and spend enough money to keep the trails perfect. Not every resort can do this, there are only so many peeps who are going to go there, vs say a Kingdom Trails type venue that costs like 5 bucks, with the same level of trail maintenance.

    Mountain bikers, from what I hear and see everyday, are also buying bikes for 10 grand almost exclusively on high interest credit cards in one of the largest bubbles in recreational sports. It isn't going to last long term IMO. 10 grand for a bike is crazy, and the longevity of most bikes is laughably short and they depreciate to basically 0 within 2 years.

    Meanwhile skiing priced out the dirt bags 20 years ago, and while might be stagnant in terms of growth of skier visits for the most part, the ones that do show up have money to burn with ongoing resources to keep them coming back again and again, well into their 60's and 70's. That is never going to happen with mountain biking.
    Got news for you, skiing is a young game too. Only 23% of skier visits are over the age of 50. Recreational lift served skiing is over 80 years old in the US while the first dh full suspension mountain bike is only 25 years old.

    Over 20 million bikes sold in US/yr so that includes your huffys and kids bike plus road. 5 million are mountain bikes.

    Lifts mean old people and flat states don't have to pedal

    Ebikes mean old people are riding trails

    Flow trails mean that non rad people like to ride lifts and rail berms on groomed dirt without the crash deterrent of tech.

    Average household income
    mtn biker 108k
    Skier 100k

    So yea, mtn bikers aren't about to fiscally implode over 10k bikes any more than a skier is over 2k DPS with dynafit.

    Sure there does not need to be as many bike resorts as ski resorts.

    Yes, there is enough market value for well built, well maintained, lift served biking for there to be more resorts than just Whistler. And there already are several out there! But they are not Vail Resort mountains (besides Whistler).
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benny Profane View Post
    The cancer spreads.......

    Hunter and Vail deserve each other.

    I cry for Wildcat though.

  14. #39
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  15. #40
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    I think the mtb park concept could be a lot more profitable if the trails were designed to be really user friendly but still fun. I know I could get my daughter riding if we had easy flow trails off the lift here. Trying to convince a 12 year old girl that pedaling up the mountain for an hour and a half to do one descent is definitely not working for me.

    I don't do hot laps any more but I wouldn't mind the lift served experience on the mountain as long as I don't have to get all Evil Kenevil every lap.
    dirtbag, not a dentist

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by The SnowShow View Post
    Pretty sad the direction this is all going. Even more people will be able to access even more terrain for storm cycles. Will powder even last an hour inbounds anymore?

    This criticism goes for both passes. Look what happened all last season at Jackson, Squaw, Brighton and Snowbird. This fucking sucks.
    It will last all day during a midweek sleeper day at an indy mountain.

    I'm hoping that the whole conglomerate ski area deal is going to create more business for the small mom and pop type places as people see the value in that experience again and become tired of the Epic and Iconic shit shows.
    dirtbag, not a dentist

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benny Profane View Post
    The cancer spreads.......
    QFT
    Quote Originally Posted by brutah View Post
    My guess is the epic pass is more expensive than most of the ski resorts they just purchased's season passes so this will essentially price more people out of the sport.
    And the day passes are just dumb which kills the average joe trying to take his kids for their 1, 2, 3 days a year ski day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ski220 View Post

    I cry for Wildcat though.
    Yup. The locals got f'd by the last one and this is the icing on the cake.

  18. #43
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    Now ALL restaurants are Taco Bell!
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summit View Post
    Got news for you, skiing is a young game too. Only 23% of skier visits are over the age of 50. Recreational lift served skiing is over 80 years old in the US while the first dh full suspension mountain bike is only 25 years old.

    Over 20 million bikes sold in US/yr so that includes your huffys and kids bike plus road. 5 million are mountain bikes.

    Lifts mean old people and flat states don't have to pedal

    Ebikes mean old people are riding trails

    Flow trails mean that non rad people like to ride lifts and rail berms on groomed dirt without the crash deterrent of tech.

    Average household income
    mtn biker 108k
    Skier 100k

    So yea, mtn bikers aren't about to fiscally implode over 10k bikes any more than a skier is over 2k DPS with dynafit.

    Sure there does not need to be as many bike resorts as ski resorts.

    Yes, there is enough market value for well built, well maintained, lift served biking for there to be more resorts than just Whistler. And there already are several out there! But they are not Vail Resort mountains (besides Whistler).
    Let's just say if all those things were true, there would be a whole lot more mountain bike parks and you would be the CEO of Vail. Somehow, neither of those is the case.

    I also chuckle at the casual brush off that a bike that is 5x more expensive than even the most blingy bc ski setup is somehow no big deal. That kinda dough for a bike is unsustainable even at 3-5k.
    Live Free or Die

  20. #45
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    I've always marvelled, even as a road biker, how somebody can spend so much for an MTB and immediately ride in into the woods and bash it around on rocks and logs in the mud. My road rides are pricey, but I don't abuse them. MTB is expensive.

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  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benny Profane View Post
    I've always marvelled, even as a road biker, how somebody can spend so much for an MTB and immediately ride in into the woods and bash it around on rocks and logs in the mud. My road rides are pricey, but I don't abuse them. MTB is expensive.
    Road is boring man. And mtn bikes can take a beating. I've broken one shifter in 3 years...that's it aside from wear items.

    Quote Originally Posted by AdironRider View Post
    That kinda dough for a bike is unsustainable even at 3-5k.
    That is more the norm. 10k bikes are out there, but very few buy them. You can get into a good fs bike for 2k+ and you hit 3k+ it is a great bike for most.

  22. #47
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    Vail and mountain biking is a classic example of marketing myopia.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdironRider View Post
    Let's just say if all those things were true, there would be a whole lot more mountain bike parks and you would be the CEO of Vail. Somehow, neither of those is the case.

    I also chuckle at the casual brush off that a bike that is 5x more expensive than even the most blingy bc ski setup is somehow no big deal. That kinda dough for a bike is unsustainable even at 3-5k.
    Or there is an only partially exploited and growing market that Vail is missing the boat on because of misshapen attitudes and skewed outlooks...

    We are in a world where one 10K bike or 5K can do it all mtb-wise. An average Mtb is probably $3250. Average alpine skis+bindings probably $1250. Yes some bike enthusiasts have 8 bikes, but most have 1-3 bikes. The average ski owner has more pairs of skis than the average mtber has mountain bikes.

    The real take away is that mountain bikers have and spend money, at least as much as skiers do. Build nice trails, all levels, all types, both flow and tech, green through double black, and maintain it, and you'll get these moneyed recreationists to come buy lift tickets, buy condo nights, eat at restaurants and bars, and shop in in your shops. As I said, there are many ski hills that have bike parks that meet this criteria... they just aren't Vail Resort mountains except Whistler, and maybe Crested Butte... Northstar? So thats 2 or 3 out of 27 resorts...

    Mtb Tourism is a thing. Vail can't even get a Summer Epic pass together. Their business model is buy a pass at your local hill that is good at their high end resorts so they can get you to travel and spend money. Do they have a pass that is good at both Whistler and their US bike parks? Nope...
    Last edited by Summit; 07-23-2019 at 02:49 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  24. #49
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    I don't know man. Don't know the numbers, but, bet if I went up to Killington this weekend, it would be damn sleepy compared to March. Hell, even May, when there's one trail of mud bumps. Probably a lot more golfers, and that's not a popular golf course

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  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by B.Gillis View Post
    Vail and mountain biking is a classic example of marketing myopia.
    Well said, and succinct.

    I haven't had the chance to ride Northstar, but I hear it is the biggest US bike park that Vail has. Am I safe to assume most everything was built prior to the 2010 purchase by Vail? And that Vail maintains it the same way they take care of Keystone, which is to say slightly better than bare bones on a good year?
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

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