When did you "throw in the towel"?

[AdironRider]

I could've sworn I saw a really good post from AdironRider in here today but now can't find it. Mirrored a LOT of what I've observed. Did it get deleted or is it just my imagination?

Hey thanks. Its not your imagination, I did post but I went back to change a spelling error and deleted the whole thing by mistake. I got tied up at work the rest of the day but I'll try and recreate it below.

I've almost thrown in the towel twice in my 12 years in a ski town. The first was after my first year to go to grad school. I didn't even make it onto campus before turning around and moving back. The second was after I got the inevitable letter that my sweet cheap rental of six years was going on the market and I needed to get my ass out immediately. I was lucky to go that long, this usually happens every six months to a year for most.

Both times I took a trip home for a week or two to the real world. It helps to go to someplace boring, where the real world is actually being the real world, not someplace new and exciting. It is usually a good perspective that everyone looks at differently, but for me it was/still is fat people and their general apathy for life but a desire for a fat paycheck that turned me off to the real world and had me running back.

That being said, there are certain inalienable truths of living in a ski town that you need to accept, or you are going to have a tough time.

1) You will make 50% at best compared to a similar field in a major city. Maybe 75% of what someone would make in some middle America one. It will take you twice as long to reach that pay grade compared to both as well. Professional jobs do exist but take a couple years of making it work before you will stumble into one. It will probably not be in a field you went to school for.

2) You will be surrounded by people who have way more money than you. This gets very apparent as soon as you, or your cohorts start having children. I am amazed at how many people I know sold their 15 year old Tacos and Subarus and are now buying BMW's and 2.5 million dollar houses now that they have kids. They will do this while the whole time you know they make maybe 25 bucks an hour at best.

3) People in general are more selfish. Most of their wealth is from Mom and Dad and they are not used to not getting what they want. With a limited amount of resources (significant others, professional careers) the amount of backstabbing and general pettiness/dickishness you will encounter will astound you despite the small town nature. You will see lots of charitable giving as people try and repent.

4) Entrepreneurship is encouraged in concept but not practice. The amount of good ol boy bullshit and moat building you will encounter will be extreme compared to some real world place where people generally don't care if there is a little competition in comparison. Lots of times, these are "bought" jobs with money from Mom and Dad and are not capable of handling said competition.

5) Your social circle will turn over at least three times a decade while you get established. Fred is probably spot on that maybe 1% of people will make it, for every one lifelong friend you make you will have 99 ski buddies who stick around for a year or three then leave.

Now with that all being said. If you give up caring about comparing yourself to others, which is pretty difficult in general but is probably required, you will have an amazing life. Literally none of what I listed above (well maybe except the social circle part) will ever be a problem or a care if you don't give a shit about keeping up with the Joneses. Also, none of the backstabbing pettiness if people don't see you as a threat to those limited resources and are otherwise generally pretty rad.

For me, I found the right balance about 20 minutes outside of paradise and work in a professional gig that is decent and challenging enough, that took me almost 5 years to stumble into. Out here I can actually own a house with people who don't get help from Mom and Dad as much, and they tend to stick around longer. Its pretty nice. I usually get a little jaded by the end of summer, usually sitting in tourist traffic, then fly home for a week and sit in real traffic and laugh at how good I got it.

[Ted Striker]

On my 25th birthday I woke up, realized I was one missed paycheck from being evicted or not being able to feed my 3 year old as a single dad. Rode my bike to the local college, some of my racing buddies were in admissions and said just sign up, we’ll juggle the paperwork until student loans can come through. School started in 2 days. Fast forward...4 years of college in 2 years by crushing myself. Then Med school, residency and now I can live wherever the fuck I want. I think it was worth the pain and expense but you need to take a hard look before signing up.

fkna man! That is awesome. Much respect.

[iceman]

Hey thanks. Its not your imagination, I did post but I went back to change a spelling error and deleted the whole thing by mistake. I got tied up at work the rest of the day but I'll try and recreate it below.

I've almost thrown in the towel twice in my 12 years in a ski town. The first was after my first year to go to grad school. I didn't even make it onto campus before turning around and moving back. The second was after I got the inevitable letter that my sweet cheap rental of six years was going on the market and I needed to get my ass out immediately. I was lucky to go that long, this usually happens every six months to a year for most.

Both times I took a trip home for a week or two to the real world. It helps to go to someplace boring, where the real world is actually being the real world, not someplace new and exciting. It is usually a good perspective that everyone looks at differently, but for me it was/still is fat people and their general apathy for life but a desire for a fat paycheck that turned me off to the real world and had me running back.

That being said, there are certain inalienable truths of living in a ski town that you need to accept, or you are going to have a tough time.

1) You will make 50% at best compared to a similar field in a major city. Maybe 75% of what someone would make in some middle America one. It will take you twice as long to reach that pay grade compared to both as well. Professional jobs do exist but take a couple years of making it work before you will stumble into one. It will probably not be in a field you went to school for.

2) You will be surrounded by people who have way more money than you. This gets very apparent as soon as you, or your cohorts start having children. I am amazed at how many people I know sold their 15 year old Tacos and Subarus and are now buying BMW's and 2.5 million dollar houses now that they have kids. They will do this while the whole time you know they make maybe 25 bucks an hour at best.

3) People in general are more selfish. Most of their wealth is from Mom and Dad and they are not used to not getting what they want. With a limited amount of resources (significant others, professional careers) the amount of backstabbing and general pettiness/dickishness you will encounter will astound you despite the small town nature. You will see lots of charitable giving as people try and repent.

4) Entrepreneurship is encouraged in concept but not practice. The amount of good ol boy bullshit and moat building you will encounter will be extreme compared to some real world place where people generally don't care if there is a little competition in comparison. Lots of times, these are "bought" jobs with money from Mom and Dad and are not capable of handling said competition.

5) Your social circle will turn over at least three times a decade while you get established. Fred is probably spot on that maybe 1% of people will make it, for every one lifelong friend you make you will have 99 ski buddies who stick around for a year or three then leave.

Now with that all being said. If you give up caring about comparing yourself to others, which is pretty difficult in general but is probably required, you will have an amazing life. Literally none of what I listed above (well maybe except the social circle part) will ever be a problem or a care if you don't give a shit about keeping up with the Joneses. Also, none of the backstabbing pettiness if people don't see you as a threat to those limited resources and are otherwise generally pretty rad.

For me, I found the right balance about 20 minutes outside of paradise and work in a professional gig that is decent and challenging enough, that took me almost 5 years to stumble into. Out here I can actually own a house with people who don't get help from Mom and Dad as much, and they tend to stick around longer. Its pretty nice. I usually get a little jaded by the end of summer, usually sitting in tourist traffic, then fly home for a week and sit in real traffic and laugh at how good I got it.

No ocean though.

[Harry]

this is la la land and it's a joke, rather be living a joke than grinding it out in the real world

You described Big Sky perfectly. Like you, I am surfing the wave and enjoying it. Living the dream...



Edit: OP needs to sack up. Quit being a pussy. Tons of work right now. Take advantage of the opportunity staring you in the face.


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[RootSkier]

I dont live in a ski town per se but I have 2600 vertical 25 minutes from my office and my work buys me a pass. I didn't get the required professional degree until I was 33.

We own a house blah blah blah the biking is OK and it could be a lot worse.

I miss a lot of old friends who moved away and make way more money than I ever will.

Life is hard. This thread is good.

Could be so much worse.

[carpathian]

I turn my head right and look out south window to ocean about 400 yards away. Turn left and look out west window and see ski hill 3 miles up the road.

[jono]

I do have and use one of these though:

Seems smart. If your only tool is a maul every problem is a...?

[rideit]

Fawn?

[billyk]

I feel compelled to cunt up thread with negativity, as I often do, so here goes. IMO, working for peanuts doing menial labor in a ski town surrounded by rich people is not a sound career path. Also, unless you have some family connections as a potential seed money source, or some other collateral, no one is going to offer you funding for your business idea.

Go get a degree in a field that pays well. Sell your soul like some of the rest of us have. Mid thirties is not too late to do it, but your window is closing fast. Good luck!

[mcski]

Fawn?

Fawn Leibowitz

[NWFlow]

If this is about Bozeman from a 1-yr transplant who is now the tourist police...

Not sure why you'd have to throw in the towel in this particular situation. Great state school there where you can get a degree while working some sort of potentially less-fulfilling job to pay the bills (plenty of now hiring signs EVERYWHERE last time I was home), establish connections, and end up with new credentials and a degree as you mention at the end of your post. How is this throwing in the towel??

Bozeman is blowing the fuck up and it does kinda suck, but seems like it's a big enough city now to offer some of the opportunities that you might be chasing moving to a larger metropolitan area anyway, and you still have access to all the recreation you've been wanting anyway. Bridger isn't on Ikon.

[Bobby Stainless]

You are 30 years old and want to throw in the towel?

I didn't read anything else. Maybe Im taking that out of context.

[Foggy_Goggles]

Isn't this where somebody is supposed to explain that there are a bunch of six figure jobs available telecommuting and everybody who isn't doing it is stupid? I'm real surprised we haven't gone down the, "look at me, this is how I do life, ain't I awesome" road with this thread. It is a nice change.

Different things make difference people happy. I agree with others that there is less opportunity for the +/-$75K easy white collar job in mountain towns. If you need that type of arrangement to be happy, you may need to move to an area with a larger concentration of higher paying jobs.

That said, if what you are really talking about is the relationship between income and cost of living the situation is a lot less black and white than most people like to admit. There is a big difference between places like Jackson, Vail, Aspen, Bozeman, etc. and places like Glenwood Springs, Gunnison, Ogden, Rifle etc.

Personally, I like towns in the semi rural west with enough tourism and development to keep the demand for second home and the prices for construction services high enough to keep me clinging to whatever middle class might mean these days. If the town is too cool, I can't stand the have/have not divide between the upper class locals and high dollar visitors and the working class that do the work.

If this is WRG, loose the identity and don't be a pussy. What have you lived in Bozone 2 years. The website for the real estate company you work for is a joke http://www.bigskyrealestateguide.com...tate/about.php

It looks like you are surrounding yourself with all the types of people that are selling the cool places down the river. Really, the owner's bio starts with "living the dream..." and his posed photo includes a pearl snap denim shirt? Come on bro...You wanna be who you wanna be and surround yourself with people who respect that or who just gonna get in like and start chugging cocks and sniffing farts crossing your fingers hoping to grab a little bit on someone else's dream?

What is your dream? If you are cool with driving a 10year old truck, only one bike, something other that the latest and coolest everything, a condo with a small garage or a beater house a bit of a drive from skiing, laying low with the teachers, plumbers, government employees, and supervisors from the ski area...you might make it. You probably get to take a few cool vacations a year but no heli skiing in AK. 30 hour weeks we not be the norm. A night job to help with the downpayment might be required. You'll probably ski about 30 days a year and you'll miss a lot of week day pow. On the weekend you may stand in line.

If you dream is skiing every good day, having a bunch of expensive equipment and basically playing the game and trying to keep up with Chet and Buffy, you'll probably fair and run back to Jersey with your tail between your legs and work for dad.

Bottom line: life is about compromise and sacrifice. Have a long hard look at yourself and see what works for you. There are no easy answers and where you chose to hang your hat is less important than many are willing to recognize.

[danmelon]

I feel compelled to cunt up thread with negativity, as I often do, so here goes. IMO, working for peanuts doing menial labor in a ski town surrounded by rich people is not a sound career path. Also, unless you have some family connections as a potential seed money source, or some other collateral, no one is going to offer you funding for your business idea.

Go get a degree in a field that pays well. Sell your soul like some of the rest of us have. Mid thirties is not too late to do it, but your window is closing fast. Good luck!

Saw a lot of postings for urban planning jobs in/near mountain towns out west when I was looking for jobs after my grad degree. Not a bad field to get into and seems like there is lots of work w decent pay and benefits. I guess not ideal if you don't wanna work like 'normal' peeps tho.

[NWFlow]

Water / wastewater treatment is another good option as well. Think it's a two year certificate to be a licensed plant operator and plenty of jobs in that field. Kinda wish I'd done that.

[lifelinksplit]

So many directions for this thread to go: realtors suck, Bozeman sucks, just work harder, go back to school, go grind it out in the real world, manwhoring, etc...

Grabbing popcorn.

[Harry]

OP is really a WRG alias ? That's too bad if he moves away, Ive met him and I like the guy.


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[danmelon]

As a Canadian observing this thread, the 'going back to school' option seem really insane given the way US tuition rates look.

[ncskier]

OP is really a WRG alias ? That's too bad if he moves away, Ive met him and I like the guy.


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You didn't play clue much as a kid?
Of course it's him.
Moves from family business in NJ(capital intensive), becomes the arbiter of all things local in Big Sky while cursing all his fellow New Jerseyans visiting with the Ikon pass despite possibly only having a Montana drivers license for a year.
Not dumping on the guy, but if you want to make real connections and people in town know the real person, just sack up and ask. it's how you make connections in the real world.

[MontuckyFried]

Hey thanks. Its not your imagination, I did post but I went back to change a spelling error and deleted the whole thing by mistake. I got tied up at work the rest of the day but I'll try and recreate it below.

I've almost thrown in the towel twice in my 12 years in a ski town. The first was after my first year to go to grad school. I didn't even make it onto campus before turning around and moving back. The second was after I got the inevitable letter that my sweet cheap rental of six years was going on the market and I needed to get my ass out immediately. I was lucky to go that long, this usually happens every six months to a year for most.

Both times I took a trip home for a week or two to the real world. It helps to go to someplace boring, where the real world is actually being the real world, not someplace new and exciting. It is usually a good perspective that everyone looks at differently, but for me it was/still is fat people and their general apathy for life but a desire for a fat paycheck that turned me off to the real world and had me running back.

That being said, there are certain inalienable truths of living in a ski town that you need to accept, or you are going to have a tough time.

1) You will make 50% at best compared to a similar field in a major city. Maybe 75% of what someone would make in some middle America one. It will take you twice as long to reach that pay grade compared to both as well. Professional jobs do exist but take a couple years of making it work before you will stumble into one. It will probably not be in a field you went to school for.

2) You will be surrounded by people who have way more money than you. This gets very apparent as soon as you, or your cohorts start having children. I am amazed at how many people I know sold their 15 year old Tacos and Subarus and are now buying BMW's and 2.5 million dollar houses now that they have kids. They will do this while the whole time you know they make maybe 25 bucks an hour at best.

3) People in general are more selfish. Most of their wealth is from Mom and Dad and they are not used to not getting what they want. With a limited amount of resources (significant others, professional careers) the amount of backstabbing and general pettiness/dickishness you will encounter will astound you despite the small town nature. You will see lots of charitable giving as people try and repent.

4) Entrepreneurship is encouraged in concept but not practice. The amount of good ol boy bullshit and moat building you will encounter will be extreme compared to some real world place where people generally don't care if there is a little competition in comparison. Lots of times, these are "bought" jobs with money from Mom and Dad and are not capable of handling said competition.

5) Your social circle will turn over at least three times a decade while you get established. Fred is probably spot on that maybe 1% of people will make it, for every one lifelong friend you make you will have 99 ski buddies who stick around for a year or three then leave.

Now with that all being said. If you give up caring about comparing yourself to others, which is pretty difficult in general but is probably required, you will have an amazing life. Literally none of what I listed above (well maybe except the social circle part) will ever be a problem or a care if you don't give a shit about keeping up with the Joneses. Also, none of the backstabbing pettiness if people don't see you as a threat to those limited resources and are otherwise generally pretty rad.

For me, I found the right balance about 20 minutes outside of paradise and work in a professional gig that is decent and challenging enough, that took me almost 5 years to stumble into. Out here I can actually own a house with people who don't get help from Mom and Dad as much, and they tend to stick around longer. Its pretty nice. I usually get a little jaded by the end of summer, usually sitting in tourist traffic, then fly home for a week and sit in real traffic and laugh at how good I got it.

Nailed it. Thanks for re-typing all that up! So yeah, in a nutshell, if you can make it happen, stick it out. I don't know what OP's dealing with, so I can't say for sure what I would suggest, but as for me, if only I had played my cards differently, I'd still be there. Unfortunately for me, I chose the wrong hand, put ALL my chips in, which put a big target on my back, and ultimately got crushed by the machine and had to fold. Doh! Shoulda telecommuted...

[MontuckyFried]

Find a niche that doesn't cost a lot of money for start up and start filling a need.

True. That's the key right there. Something that doesn't cost a lot of money to start AND fills a unique niche. That's where I went wrong. My particular business was waaaaaaaaay too expensive. Plus it was self/bank funded. No investors.

I dunno Austin, I have lived in and around Big Sky/Bozeman for coming up on 30 years. I never worried about who I piss off or call out and believe me, I set fire to a lot of bridges. When I was fired from Big Sky in 2001/02 I wrote a letter to the editor of the local paper describing what happened. I had a LOT of people who I had never met approach me if only to tell me their story of getting Boyned and how I was just a member of a not very elite club. Every one of them said the same thing, "don't worry, it will work out". The next year I was helping to build a new ski area right next door and really pissing in Big Sky's cheerios. A large part of the reason I was hired into that situation was because of past history, so ya never know.

Ah, the good ol' days pre-CrossHarbor. As a fellow bridge burner myself (I just can't keep my mouth shut when I get screwed over), I hear ya. Unfortunately too many have become scared to speak the truth about the "Baron" or work with any outsiders that aren't part of an outfit he doesn't have a piece of. The town changed drastically from when I arrived in 2012. Was weird seeing people change once their companies became 'assimilated.' It truly is like the Borg.

That all said, it highlights the need for your quote above. Gotta carve out a niche that NOBODY else is doing and that the overlords wouldn't be interested in bothering with either. Sounds like you have a good angle. I know a few good dudes up there who have it figured with NON-real estate/development jobs, and that seems to be the ticket. Hindsight is 20/20 and all that. So, I really don't want to sound so negative to OP. The trick is finding out what works before it's too late. That's why he needs our advice. DON'T do what I did, but rather carve out a more workable path. It's not too late. You can do it, OP. Would be great to give the oligarchy the big middle finger like Not Bunion as you make hay without having to gargle the Baron's balls. It can be done. Time to brainstorm, OP!!! Now start a new thread without the alias, sack up like Harry said, and perhaps we can all help you a bit more accurately the best we can. I can sure tell you what NOT to do. Haha.

[El Chupacabra]

There is a big difference between places like Jackson, Vail, Aspen, Bozeman, etc. and places like Glenwood Springs, Gunnison, Ogden, Rifle etc

This. There are those places with excellent outdoor opportunities that still have real jobs - not resort towns.

Living in Reno (or SLC, or whatever) isn't living in Vail or Jackson, but it could be a lot worse.

[fastfred]

I"m not going to quote it
but AdironRider
nailed it with his post, broke it all down perfectly
thanks

so many people who up with no direction (I did but I was 19) no plan no nothing and expect the silverplatter to be handed to them along with their local card and guide book of how to be successful and be an all star in a ski town, doesn't work that way sorry, they leave broken hearted financial broke and with a bad taste in their mouth where they spew bullshit about how the place sucks when they are back home

there are tons of people in a ski town/locale with average boring jobs, sure the pay is not the best when you figure in the cost of living, but you sacrifice different things to have a chairlift fifteen minute walk from your front door, mountain biking trails out your front door, lots of people manage retail stores and make good money, other people run lodging businesses, other people have goverment jobs, some people are firefighters police and others start their own businesses, there is so much opportunity the problem is no one is going to hand it too you no one is going to give you a 100k and tell you start a business, most businesses fail in less than five years btw

my luck is I got here at a young age, fucked off for ten plus years and then decided to grow up in my early 30's, I consider myself lucky the way it worked out

smoked so much weed this morning I can't see straight I need money cause I'm broke but I"m the guy driving around town aimlessly left arm hanging out the window dog hanging out the other suns out and I don't have a care in the world part luck part hard work

[I Skied Bandini Mountain]

OP made an alias to ask a serious but maybe a bit of an esoteric question.. I don't understand the need to out him?

[skifishbum]

whatwouldrogdo