Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 1 2
Results 26 to 35 of 35
  1. #26
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    2,767
    Quote Originally Posted by onenerdykid View Post
    Wasn't me. Was he in Altenmarkt getting fitted?
    yeah, last week? He's probably not high enough up in WC points for your magic.
    what's orange and looks good on hippies?
    fire

    rails are for trains
    If I had a dollar for every time capitalism was blamed for problems caused by the government I'd be a rich fat film maker in a baseball hat.

    www.theguideshut.ca

  2. #27
    Join Date
    Jun 2021
    Posts
    256
    Can you go more in depth on how Grilamid/PA is boot fitter friendly in the sense that they can be heat molded, while they're also considered temperature stable? I would assume that a plastic thats easier to manipulate would be more receptive to different temperatures?

    I have a pair of Roxa R3 TI that claim Grilamid.. do you know if these are legit grilamid or just PA? Also have a pair of FT, which claim a grilamid tongue.. also curious if you know these are legit grilamid or not. FT also says the cuff and lower are TPU.. is this True Flex PU like Atomic or a bit different?

  3. #28
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    西 雅 圖
    Posts
    5,359
    Quote Originally Posted by bearcub69 View Post
    Can you go more in depth on how Grilamid/PA is boot fitter friendly in the sense that they can be heat molded, while they're also considered temperature stable? I would assume that a plastic thats easier to manipulate would be more receptive to different temperatures?

    I have a pair of Roxa R3 TI that claim Grilamid.. do you know if these are legit grilamid or just PA? Also have a pair of FT, which claim a grilamid tongue.. also curious if you know these are legit grilamid or not. FT also says the cuff and lower are TPU.. is this True Flex PU like Atomic or a bit different?
    Polyamide (PA) is a generic class of plastics that includes Nylon 6, Nylon 12, and Grilamid (a proprietary material sold only by EMS Grivory in Switzerland). So a boot made of Grilamid can also be said to be made of PA, though people usually call it out because it costs more.

    When bootfitters say a boot is bootfitter friendly, it normally means it heats and punches in a predictable manner and stays there well. This is true of Grilamid, but also of many PU (Polyurethane) compounds. There are many plastics that have been formulated to "heat mold" (assuming you mean throwing the shell in an oven) well, not just Grilamid.

    I have no idea if Roxa and Full Tilt are using "real" Grilamid or not, but I would guess they wouldn't make that claim if they weren't actually buying the product.

    TPU stands for "Thermo Plastic Urethane," which includes pretty much all Polyurethane compounds, including Atomic's True Flex blend. As with polyamides, there are hundreds of different formulas for TPU's and many proprietary trade versions.

    When people in the ski industry talk about a plastic being "temperature stable" they are talking about consistency of flex in the range of temperatures normally experienced during skiing, not the temperatures required to change the shape of the shell in a shop.

    From personal experience, I would say True Flex is less sensitive to thermal fluctuation than traditional PU compounds, (Grilamid as well, but it is from a different family of plastics). Being easy for a bootfitter to punch or modify and being stable under changing temperatures are not necessarily correlated.

    (Sorry if you are asking the question to Matt, though I am pretty sure he would give you the same answer)

  4. #29
    Join Date
    Jun 2021
    Posts
    256
    Quote Originally Posted by gregL View Post
    Polyamide (PA) is a generic class of plastics that includes Nylon 6, Nylon 12, and Grilamid (a proprietary material sold only by EMS Grivory in Switzerland). So a boot made of Grilamid can also be said to be made of PA, though people usually call it out because it costs more.

    When bootfitters say a boot is bootfitter friendly, it normally means it heats and punches in a predictable manner and stays there well. This is true of Grilamid, but also of many PU (Polyurethane) compounds. There are many plastics that have been formulated to "heat mold" (assuming you mean throwing the shell in an oven) well, not just Grilamid.

    I have no idea if Roxa and Full Tilt are using "real" Grilamid or not, but I would guess they wouldn't make that claim if they weren't actually buying the product.

    TPU stands for "Thermo Plastic Urethane," which includes pretty much all Polyurethane compounds, including Atomic's True Flex blend. As with polyamides, there are hundreds of different formulas for TPU's and many proprietary trade versions.

    When people in the ski industry talk about a plastic being "temperature stable" they are talking about consistency of flex in the range of temperatures normally experienced during skiing, not the temperatures required to change the shape of the shell in a shop.

    From personal experience, I would say True Flex is less sensitive to thermal fluctuation than traditional PU compounds, (Grilamid as well, but it is from a different family of plastics). Being easy for a bootfitter to punch or modify and being stable under changing temperatures are not necessarily correlated.

    (Sorry if you are asking the question to Matt, though I am pretty sure he would give you the same answer)
    Would love a response from OneNerdy, but you answered most of my questions, thank you!

    Checked my Roxas out of curiosity and the lower shell material had the "circular" stamps mentioned in the podcast and the cuff had an arrow at PA, which makes sense since theyre marketed as grilamid whether they are grilamid or just normal PA.

    And when it comes to heat moldable, I am referring to boots in oven or just wearing over time. I know Roxa markets the R3 TI as heat moldable shell now, but when I bought the boot they did not (even if they were capable then), but noticed that the shell slowly formed to my foot over the first couple weeks compared to my FTs in the past that had the PU lowers.

    As far as my curiosity if Roxa/FT were making claims on legit grilamid, in the podcast onenerdy mentioned how some brands are claiming normal PA as grilamid.. but I would just assume its legit as their made in the same factory and are reputable brands.

    As far as temperature stable referring to consistent flex in various temperatures, I also find that interesting as I can definitely tell a difference in stiffness between cold winter days and warm spring days, which obviously isn't surprising to me, but surprising as PA is known to be a more temperature stable plastic.

  5. #30
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    西 雅 圖
    Posts
    5,359
    Quote Originally Posted by bearcub69 View Post
    And when it comes to heat moldable, I am referring to boots in oven or just wearing over time. I know Roxa markets the R3 TI as heat moldable shell now, but when I bought the boot they did not (even if they were capable then), but noticed that the shell slowly formed to my foot over the first couple weeks compared to my FTs in the past that had the PU lowers.
    You can throw any boot in the oven for 8-10 minutes and stand in it as it cools and it will feel better, the question is whether the plastic will stay in that shape afterwards. Skiing in any boot for a few days will also make it feel better, but I would guess it's mostly the liner changing and not the shell. I heat molded my pair of R3's for 10 minutes in a standard K-Tech oven, and the shells definitely moved - especially in the first and fifth metatarsal zones where Roxa has "pre-scribed" the shell interior.

    Quote Originally Posted by bearcub69 View Post
    As far as my curiosity if Roxa/FT were making claims on legit grilamid, in the podcast onenerdy mentioned how some brands are claiming normal PA as grilamid.. but I would just assume its legit as their made in the same factory and are reputable brands.
    Roxa used to make the 102mm lasted Full Tilt boots, but AFAIK they are made at Dalbello now since K2 bought that factory. No idea if they are lying about using genuine Grilamid, but I would give them the benefit of the doubt. FWIW there are many varieties of Grilamid (it's not just one formula, check out the EMS Grivory catalog sometime) and I would guess the one Atomic uses in their heat moldable shells is a one-off compound. There are also other PA's in use that get less press (see Irfran, for instance) that perform much like Grilamid, and choosing what plastic to use in a particular boot is a complicated balancing act between weight/rigidity/progressiveness/cost.

  6. #31
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    西 雅 圖
    Posts
    5,359
    Quote Originally Posted by gregL View Post
    You can throw any boot in the oven for 8-10 minutes and stand in it as it cools and it will feel better, the question is whether the plastic will stay in that shape afterwards. Skiing in any boot for a few days will also make it feel better, but I would guess it's mostly the liner changing and not the shell. I heat molded my pair of R3's for 10 minutes in a standard K-Tech oven, and the shells definitely moved - especially in the first and fifth metatarsal zones where Roxa has "pre-scribed" the shell interior.



    Roxa used to make the 102mm lasted Full Tilt boots, but AFAIK they are made at Dalbello now since K2 bought that factory. No idea if they are lying about using genuine Grilamid, but I would give them the benefit of the doubt. FWIW there are many varieties of Grilamid (it's not just one formula, check out the EMS Grivory catalog sometime) and I would guess the one Atomic uses in their heat moldable shells is a one-off compound. There are also other PA's in use that get less press (see Irfran, for instance) that perform much like Grilamid, and choosing what plastic to use in a particular boot is a complicated balancing act between weight/rigidity/progressiveness/cost.
    PS Often when companies make misleading or outright false claims about materials used in their product, it's the marketing people not the product people - the copywriter who does the catalog may not even know the relationship between Grilamid and generic polyamides (they may think they are one and the same). Witness the claims of "Titanium" as a laminate in skis (looking at you, Atomic, Blizzard and Völkl, among others) when it is in actuality Titanal . . .

  7. #32
    Join Date
    Jun 2021
    Posts
    256
    Quote Originally Posted by gregL View Post
    You can throw any boot in the oven for 8-10 minutes and stand in it as it cools and it will feel better, the question is whether the plastic will stay in that shape afterwards. Skiing in any boot for a few days will also make it feel better, but I would guess it's mostly the liner changing and not the shell. I heat molded my pair of R3's for 10 minutes in a standard K-Tech oven, and the shells definitely moved - especially in the first and fifth metatarsal zones where Roxa has "pre-scribed" the shell interior.

    Roxa used to make the 102mm lasted Full Tilt boots, but AFAIK they are made at Dalbello now since K2 bought that factory. No idea if they are lying about using genuine Grilamid, but I would give them the benefit of the doubt. FWIW there are many varieties of Grilamid (it's not just one formula, check out the EMS Grivory catalog sometime) and I would guess the one Atomic uses in their heat moldable shells is a one-off compound. There are also other PA's in use that get less press (see Irfran, for instance) that perform much like Grilamid, and choosing what plastic to use in a particular boot is a complicated balancing act between weight/rigidity/progressiveness/cost.
    Do you think it would be possible or even a good idea to heat mold my shells now that they are a few years old? And I could be wrong, but I talked to a couple boot guys that said it was probably the shell making slight adjustments as well, not just the liner, which I wouldn't doubt considering I had the liners heat molded, although there would still a bit of room for the liners to "pack out" after the molding process and once skiing, so maybe it was just the liners.

    Thought FT was still made at Roxa, but is Dalbello/FT still made in Italy? I would assume if they're both still in Italy and all share the 3-piece design it would make sense to operate out of the same factory.

    I love my Roxas and loved my old FTs, thinking about upgrading to a new set of both.. if I upgrade the FT just cant decide between a pair of Classic Pros and swap with a 10/12 tongue if I find the 8 too soft or FC130 and swap with a wrap liner.. Had a pair of Konflicts with the 8, but I've heard that the new 8 feels a bit soft compared to the old one.

    Also, since it seems like you know a decent amount about boots, whats your take on how long you should ski in a pair of shells? I've heard 150-200 days but that seems super low, maybe I just heard that within the industry as a marketing technique to try to make me buy more boots lol.

  8. #33
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    西 雅 圖
    Posts
    5,359
    Quote Originally Posted by bearcub69 View Post
    Do you think it would be possible or even a good idea to heat mold my shells now that they are a few years old? And I could be wrong, but I talked to a couple boot guys that said it was probably the shell making slight adjustments as well, not just the liner, which I wouldn't doubt considering I had the liners heat molded, although there would still a bit of room for the liners to "pack out" after the molding process and once skiing, so maybe it was just the liners.

    Thought FT was still made at Roxa, but is Dalbello/FT still made in Italy? I would assume if they're both still in Italy and all share the 3-piece design it would make sense to operate out of the same factory.

    I love my Roxas and loved my old FTs, thinking about upgrading to a new set of both.. if I upgrade the FT just cant decide between a pair of Classic Pros and swap with a 10/12 tongue if I find the 8 too soft or FC130 and swap with a wrap liner.. Had a pair of Konflicts with the 8, but I've heard that the new 8 feels a bit soft compared to the old one.

    Also, since it seems like you know a decent amount about boots, whats your take on how long you should ski in a pair of shells? I've heard 150-200 days but that seems super low, maybe I just heard that within the industry as a marketing technique to try to make me buy more boots lol.
    Why are you unhappy with the current fit? I don't think it will hurt anything to heat mold them now, but localized modifications will probably be better done by a bootfitter with a lever press.

    We've had a question and answer session with the K2 boot designers, and they say all the Full Tilt, K2 and Dalbello boots are now made in the Dalbello factory. Roxa and Dalbello are both located in Asolo, which isn't that big a place, so who knows what is really going on or how much they share.

    Depending on how much you weigh, how smooth a skier you are, and how much edge damage you sustain on the shells I'd say 150-250 days is a good range. I'm in ski retail, of course, so my view tends to skew toward buying more boots more often.

  9. #34
    Join Date
    Jun 2021
    Posts
    256
    Quote Originally Posted by gregL View Post
    Why are you unhappy with the current fit? I don't think it will hurt anything to heat mold them now, but localized modifications will probably be better done by a bootfitter with a lever press.

    Depending on how much you weigh, how smooth a skier you are, and how much edge damage you sustain on the shells I'd say 150-250 days is a good range. I'm in ski retail, of course, so my view tends to skew toward buying more boots more often.
    Not necessarily unhappy. They've been the most comfortable and performing boot I've had, but I wasn't able to ski until late spring this year and didn't ski much and noticed a bit of discomfort (might have been a bad case of "summer shin").. but thats the first time it happened, I made a few adjustments I knew I could make, if I'm still having discomfort start of this winter I was already planning on making a trip to my boot fitter. Was just curious if its a good idea to mold shells after multiple seasons of use.

  10. #35
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    西 雅 圖
    Posts
    5,359
    Quote Originally Posted by bearcub69 View Post
    Was just curious if its a good idea to mold shells after multiple seasons of use.
    It shouldn't matter as long as the structural integrity of the shell is good (i.e. not shaved thin by your edges or otherwise compromised). I've re-molded several Atomic Memory Fit boots for other feet after a season or two of use without problem.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •