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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackstraw View Post
    Honestly, as my body continues to breakdown after all these years of abuse, I'm concerned about my hobbies and passions that I currently pursue whereas I may not be able to do them in the future. I'm trying to find something that I enjoy that is not so demanding on me physically. So far I have not found it. Golf is the best I've got, but even when I play a good shot or hole or a round, it just doesn't give anything remotely close to the feeling of skiing or mtn biking a fun line. Sailing is my next thought. I've raced a couple of times and it was fun.
    I worry about this. I had a coworker who was very physically active and finally retired when he was probably 65 or so. By that time he had started having problems with balance and dizziness and couldn't ski or ride his bike to the extent he could ten years before. He realized he would finally have the time to pursue his passions, but his body wouldn't let him. Just one more reason to retire as early as possible.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdironRider View Post
    I know of no one outside of a trust funder who grosses six figures and isn't putting in 50-60 a week, at a minimum.
    These gigs are out there. I know a number of people putting in sub 40 hour weeks and are well above that threshold.

    What I don't see or know anyone who has done it in their first few years of a particular job. That's a difference I've seen over the years. I see plenty of people get into jobs that are not willing to grind at first. This is all age groups too, not singling out millennials. One personal observation I've made is those who came from rural, ag, timber, etc communities and their folks didn't have money, seem to have more persistence and patience. After a few years of the grind, they are able to decide how much they want to work and how much they want to make.

    Many people don't get on the gravy train right away and they try something else thinking that something will be easier and quicker. I can't tell you the reason.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Chupacabra View Post
    Trying to make a job into your passion (or vice versa) seems to me to be a good way to destroy your enjoyment of the thing you love doing. That saying about turning a hobby into a job...

    If my job were riding bikes full-time, I'd probably start hating having to ride bikes all the time.
    wisdom, I work to make $$ to go play.
    Hello darkness my old friend

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackstraw View Post
    Well, I was in sales. I did retail hell and I also worked for a rep for a very short period thinking that was my direction. If I was selling to a bunch of mags all day it would probably be a blast, but that's not reality. You're mostly dealing with jerry's and just like all sales...it's numbers, budgets, goals, blah blah blah. And a business directly reliant on others expendible income is not a very comfortable place to be. Selling something people need and will consistently need is a more secure place imo.
    Plus there's the whole "Well, we're super cool outdoor company XYZ. We're so cool you really should be paying us to work here, but instead we'll pay you 30-40% less than the going rate for your same job in any other industry."

  5. #80
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    I've met a lot of ex-fishing guides up here, basicly they got paid to go fishing with people they didnt wana go fishing with until they couldn't,

    One of the top guides i know left the game to teach hi-school of all things, i asked if it had to do with 70% of the fishing clientele being old republican types

    yup was the answer
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  6. #81
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    There is truth to the whole working your passion makes you less passionate.

    I used to think a cool car was the absolute pinnacle of achievement. This started with the Acura NSX in the early 90s. I had to have that car. I've since owned a number of them.

    It's sort of unfortunate that I have seen behind the curtain. Unless we are talking about some really obscure cars then my love for exotics has fallen to pretty much zero.

    I know a really fast pro driver named Memo Gidley. He can out drive anyone on this forum and has driven the finest machines available. His daily is a Prius.

    I find myself falling into that category and not sure how I feel about it. The people that own the cars I sell annoy me now.

    I get more excited about a low mileage 90s Toyota product.
    "I don't pretend to have all the answers, and I think there's something to be said for that" -One For The Road

    Brain dead and made of money.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobby Stainless View Post
    The people that own the cars I sell annoy me now.
    Ya car culture makes me wanna down a handful of opiates.

    RE: tiring of what we enjoy, we're contrast monkeys. We're designed to spot and react to contrast. When the fun activity, resort, woman becomes an every day chore it loses the contrast with the boring routine that once made it appealing. So a way to manage that is to inject diversity and variation into work and life wherever possible. Traveling domestically and abroad, spending time with different types of people, different kinds of food, varying hobbies over time.

  8. #83
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    I got a buddy who sells Santa Cruz, Ibis, Yeti, Pinerello, Cervelo, c-dale and its all just business now days
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conundrum View Post
    These gigs are out there. I know a number of people putting in sub 40 hour weeks and are well above that threshold.

    What I don't see or know anyone who has done it in their first few years of a particular job. That's a difference I've seen over the years. I see plenty of people get into jobs that are not willing to grind at first. This is all age groups too, not singling out millennials. One personal observation I've made is those who came from rural, ag, timber, etc communities and their folks didn't have money, seem to have more persistence and patience. After a few years of the grind, they are able to decide how much they want to work and how much they want to make.

    Many people don't get on the gravy train right away and they try something else thinking that something will be easier and quicker. I can't tell you the reason.
    The career path for people my age (36) and younger, who entered the job market around the time of the 2008 crash is not linear within a single company. For most people in my industry and those I talk with, the only reliable way to get a raise, instead of a title bump without a bump in pay commensurate to that, is to jump to a new company.

    I think most of us would love to find a job that was rewarding, had security, good pay, and a path to advancement, but that's not the reality anymore. Some of it can maybe be put on people looking for their passions or whatever, but a lot of it is companies just not giving a fuck about their employees anymore. Putting in a ping pong table and calling that employee culture is kinda the norm, and then downsizing at the first sign of profits dropping. Or only hiring contractors instead of employees. Tons of anti-employee bullshit goes on in companies these days, especially for younger workers.

    So yeah, for me, I could punch a clock for a company who didn't give a shit about me, make ok money, but essentially be on call 24/7 to fix whatever fuck up someone up the chain made, or I could go out on my own and pursue my own thing and potentially make more money while only having to deal with my own fuck ups.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conundrum View Post
    These gigs are out there. I know a number of people putting in sub 40 hour weeks and are well above that threshold.

    What I don't see or know anyone who has done it in their first few years of a particular job. That's a difference I've seen over the years. I see plenty of people get into jobs that are not willing to grind at first. This is all age groups too, not singling out millennials. One personal observation I've made is those who came from rural, ag, timber, etc communities and their folks didn't have money, seem to have more persistence and patience. After a few years of the grind, they are able to decide how much they want to work and how much they want to make.

    Many people don't get on the gravy train right away and they try something else thinking that something will be easier and quicker. I can't tell you the reason.
    Well I guess sure, if you put in a couple decades of 50-60 hour weeks you can pull back a bit prior to retirement. Those jobs definitely exist. Pretty much every sales guy is riding his established client base towards the end, but they put the work in busting ass long before that.

    I just think grinding it out in hopes of killing it later is not always a guaranteed path. You still gotta be good at it, and there are 10x as many grinders for life as dudes who figured it out and curtailed their workload.

    I don't think anyone hits the gravy train right out of the gate, but there are plenty gigs that'll throw off a perfectly respectable income (75K) without much effort.
    Live Free or Die

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danno View Post
    Agree with these sentiments for sure. I think every year a shitton of kids graduate college and go out searching for their passion, because they're told that is what they should do. When many don't even know what their passion really is at 22, and are highly unlikely to make a successful career of it even if they do know. It leads to serious angst in those 20-something years for many, I know it did for me.
    I think a shit ton of people go to college to find their passion and after 4 years are further from from it than when they walked in. I'm not anti-college but it's an expensive place to find yourself these days - and the conceit that everyone can do that is another left over idea from the past that should die.

    The thing about people making a successful career of their passion is they may not find it a fulfilling career. A while back I read "Why We Make Things And Why It Matters" by Peter Korn. It wasn't a very good book on that subject - but it was an interesting and introspective look at how what he was looking for changed over life (graduated college to novice carpenter society dropout on Nantucket to woodworker to teacher to founding a school) and how he made it work as well as how it wouldn't work for others, now in the same way(you aren't going to move to Nantucket and make it as a novice carpenter). It seemed to capture the person, place and time dynamic that's so missing from most advice

    Quote Originally Posted by Conundrum View Post
    What I don't see or know anyone who has done it in their first few years of a particular job. That's a difference I've seen over the years. I see plenty of people get into jobs that are not willing to grind at first. This is all age groups too, not singling out millennials. One personal observation I've made is those who came from rural, ag, timber, etc communities and their folks didn't have money, seem to have more persistence and patience. After a few years of the grind, they are able to decide how much they want to work and how much they want to make.
    you've got to find a place that grinding it will pay off, eventually. There's more than one company out there who's just interested in grinding you down and throwing you out. See above about time and place.

  12. #87
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    I know a bunch of people making six figures and working 40 or less. I'm one of them. I'd make more if I worked more as I'd be more of a candidate for more senior leadership, but I'd rather spend time with kids, family and hobbies than work.
    Most high pay/low hour jobs are technology focused or high end professional services management. That said, when they need you somewhere, you're on the hook to show up.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunfree View Post
    I think a shit ton of people go to college to find their passion and after 4 years are further from from it than when they walked in. I'm not anti-college but it's an expensive place to find yourself these days - and the conceit that everyone can do that is another left over idea from the past that should die.
    Really. It would suck to spend 4-6 years or more among a lot of interesting (and some not) people in a widely varied peer group learning about a whole bunch of different things (unless someone insists you only take courses 'that will pay off in the long run') from people who have invested themselves in their passion and the skill it takes to impart their insights into others. Education, man, what a scam. Such a waste: you might escape the place knowing stuff about stuff, and no one would pay you a dime for it.

    'Finding yourself' as a concept . . . who, exactly, is perpetrating this fraud upon people? Part of learning is to learn that it's up to you to figure stuff out; it's pretty much the job of parents to teach this as well.

    I hear people talking about books: "Everyone aid this book would really inspire me, but I read it, and i'm really not. It must be a really bad book, I don't know what all the fuss is about."

    And college is to blame? And as far as college being expensive . . . the solution you propose is to simply no go, because well it costs money and you might not get rich as a result????

    To think there might be thousands of people out there who went to college and learned stuff and they're not being rewarded for it . . .

  14. #89
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    There are jobs where you can make six figures without putting a couple decades of 50-60 hour work weeks in. Supermoon, I started in an industry in '03, had to start over in '08, changed jobs in '11, and am now probably going to retire at the company I'm with. My company recently noticed my contributions and the times I've said no to competitors offering me more money. Now I have ownership in my company (that I didn't pay money for). There is something to be said for loyalty and getting lucky enough to work for really good people. I should also mention that when I was younger in '11, I called them and asked for a job. They didn't have an opening. I took them my business plan on how I was going to make them money. It took time and persistence to get them to hire me. They offered me the lowest starting pay they've offered in that position and told me if my plan was so good, I'd take the offer.

    I had no connections or experience entering the industry. I'm only three years older than you. I didn't come from family money. Sure, I've been in the biz for 20 years but I've certainly never put in 50-60 hour work weeks. Sure, I've have a week like that here and there in 20 years but I could count them on two hands. I worked more hours in a week ski patrolling during college and a few years after than I ever have doing what I'm doing now.

    I'm not bobby stainless bragging. I only bring my story up because I hear there are not any/many companies hiring for this type of job. There wasn't for me either. I found a place I wanted to work and took them a plan on how it was beneficial for both of us. Why didn't I start my own thing? Yeah, they asked me that. I didn't and still don't want to manage people, I just want to do my job. It's not an employers responsibility to make sure you work less than 40 hours a week and make a bunch of money.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by ms ann thrope View Post
    And college is to blame? And as far as college being expensive . . . the solution you propose is to simply no go, because well it costs money and you might not get rich as a result????
    OTOH, perhaps college immediately after HS graduation shouldn't be the default choice for every decently achieving 18 year old--and, no, I'm not suggesting a gap year although if that gap year is used for something other than fucking around it could be valuable. I think many if not most 18 year olds don't have a clue what they want to do professionally, but our system now basically splits us into college bound or not at that point. Most of the opportunities that I know of for internships in "white collar" type job require the intern to be enrolled in college.

  16. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by ms ann thrope View Post
    from people who have invested themselves in their passion and the skill it takes to impart their insights into others. Education, man, what a scam.
    If you go to a small expensive liberal arts college this might be your experience - I don't think it's the norm of the college experience anymore. I certainly don't feel my undergrad math courses taught by a grad student TA were as you described - later courses were. Yes it's great to spend 4-6 years of your life learning all kinds of random things - if you can afford it. Not everyone can, which was the point. But thanks for telling everyone to eat brioche.

  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunfree View Post
    If you go to a small expensive liberal arts college this might be your experience - I don't think it's the norm of the college experience anymore. I certainly don't feel my undergrad math courses taught by a grad student TA were as you described. Yes it's great to spend 4-6 years of your life learning all kinds of random things - if you can afford it. Not everyone can, which was the point. But thanks for telling everyone to eat brioche.
    Maybe instead of rejecting education as too expensive, figure ways to make it cost less and be better? And the survey class taught by trainee grad students might not be great, but the idea is you get to the good stuff once youíve mastered the basics you didnít learn in the high school for whatever reason.

    I donít know what brioche is. I went to many different colleges, and taught in both state and private colleges, some more affordable than others, all offering different things to different people, and varying degrees of help to figure shit out.

    I flunked out of a school eventually got a grad degree from. I now make a living doing something I never studied in school. Passions change. People change. Markets change. Having an education might actually come in handy.


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  18. #93
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    I have a expensive education. I found my calling at a Lexus dealership in 2012.

  19. #94
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    The idea that education is exclusive to large campuses is pretty dumb. Not saying anyone here has stated that, but the idea in general has a lot of purchase socially. The willingness and ability to read is arguably yudgely more valuable than a diploma.

  20. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by schuss View Post
    I know a bunch of people making six figures and working 40 or less. I'm one of them. I'd make more if I worked more as I'd be more of a candidate for more senior leadership, but I'd rather spend time with kids, family and hobbies than work.
    Most high pay/low hour jobs are technology focused or high end professional services management. That said, when they need you somewhere, you're on the hook to show up.
    I think you are not telling the complete story. No one just falls into high end professional services management like a CPA or family law practice without putting in the time, or taking on a massive debt load which requires even more time put in to pay off. Even then, I think a lot of folks aren't counting the time they spend checking email at night, or taking a couple phone calls from the ski lodge for an hour or two. That time adds up, not to mention the stress of being on call basically 24/7. On the tech side I'm not buying it, IT is a 24/7 job and other tech jobs are notorious for hellacious work schedules.

    Again, I'm not saying these jobs don't exist, but they aren't just out there for the taking for just anyone like a lot of you are implying. Meanwhile an 18 year old kid can skip all of that and be grossing 75k a year as an electrician, often with union benefits, before he is 21. Those jobs are out there for the taking (substitute welding, mechanic, or many other blue collar trades if you like).

    This is turning into the boomer thread with a bunch of guys talking about how it isn't that hard to just boot strap your way to making 100k with under 40 hours a week, and it just isn't true. The debt loads alone kids need to run just to get the degree to get one of these elusive jobs you are talking about prevents it right out of the gate.
    Live Free or Die

  21. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bromontane View Post
    The idea that education is exclusive to large campuses is pretty dumb. Not saying anyone here has stated that, but the idea in general has a lot of purchase socially. The willingness and ability to read is arguably yudgely more valuable than a diploma.
    the official teaching/learning part of higher education (which I'm in favor of) is in the process of being separated from the traditional college manner it was delivered in because the "hang out with a bunch of people on a campus" to network/signal/learnextracurricular stuff is expensive these days (it's nice - if you can afford it).

    brioche is what Marie told the paesants who didn't have bread to eat.

  22. #97
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    I had thought that if one was passionate about something, 40 hours a week wouldn't be nearly enough time for it.

    So blithering on about minimizing hours or effort for maximal pay completely misses the point. Unless that's all one asks for in life.

    I had "work" projects that I loved on which I spent a shitload of time. Satisfaction requires a worthy goal. Nothing valuable comes easy.

    I also don't understand how being passionate about something means that one is not sometimes frustrated by it; passions can lead to their own agony. Love is at best learning how to deal with frustration; any other understanding is puerile superficiality.

    People who are passionate about their work are lucky, even a short interval of fascination at work is a gift.
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  23. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdironRider View Post
    Again, I'm not saying these jobs don't exist, but they aren't just out there for the taking for just anyone like a lot of you are implying. Meanwhile an 18 year old kid can skip all of that and be grossing 75k a year as an electrician, often with union benefits, before he is 21. Those jobs are out there for the taking (substitute welding, mechanic, or many other blue collar trades if you like).
    Yeah, I'm not aware of a job that pays six figures and requires 25-30 hours per week that is just sitting out there waiting for 18 year old applicants or kids fresh out of college unless those kids are extremely connected.

    I'm a big proponent of the trades. $75k/yr is low for some of them after a couple years.

  24. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobby Stainless View Post
    I have a expensive education. I found my calling at a Lexus dealership in 2012.
    * an

  25. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conundrum View Post
    Yeah, I'm not aware of a job that pays six figures and requires 25-30 hours per week that is just sitting out there waiting for 18 year old applicants or kids fresh out of college unless those kids are extremely connected.

    I'm a big proponent of the trades. $75k/yr is low for some of them after a couple years.
    And, no disrespect, but you live in Bumfuck Idaho. Guys are making $60/hr. bending sheetmetal for HVAC in DC, a job that you could learn in a week if you tried hard.

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