DIY Alpine Downhill + Tech Toe uphill touring binding

[singlecross]

Here is a link to the Voile heel risers that I used for those that have asked and a quick pic.

https://www.voile.com/voile-sts-tour-binding-heel-assembly.html

[Muggydude]

If yall need some help prototyping this out, if be more than happy to print out the concept and ship to folks, before you throw it over to protolabs. Additionally, while they’re super easy to work with, ive had really good success with having parts made at star prototype in SZ, itll take longer to get but could be a bit cheaper.


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Thanks, I might take you up on this. Been kind of swamped lately so still haven’t gotten much cad done. Will check out star prototype as well

[Eluder]

My touring binding knowledge is limited to shifts, king pins and similar. Could someone list off what bindings would be good toes for this setup? i.e. "limited distance between toe pins and back of toe piece".

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Pretty much any Euro race toe, example: Plum Race . I bet some older Dynafit comforts trimmed down would work fine as well if your trying to go cheap. These guys also sell used binding parts just make sure they have a pair of what you are looking for.

[rfconroy]

Thanks, I might take you up on this. Been kind of swamped lately so still haven’t gotten much cad done. Will check out star prototype as well

If you think your design is far enough along, I need to ship some crap out tomorrow for work, so I could throw whatever you got in the mail. I get a pretty heavy discount through work, so I'd cover the cost.

Shoot me a PM, and we can figure out the best method to get a CAD file printed.

[ntblanks]

figure out the best method to get a CAD file printed.

[rfconroy]

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[Muggydude]

Sorry it’s not ready yet. Maybe by the end of this weekend. I’ll pm you


Voile Brake risers and dynafit superlite z12s on the way.

[ntblanks]

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"...a CAD file..."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadfael_(TV_series)

[PeachesNCream]

Pretty much any Euro race toe, example: Plum Race . I bet some older Dynafit comforts trimmed down would work fine as well if your trying to go cheap. These guys also sell used binding parts just make sure they have a pair of what you are looking for.

Great. Looks like I can get a mismatch set for $110, not too bad, wouldn't be any issues with a mismatch set right? I might try GS first though. Thanks for that.

[Muggydude]

Alright folks, here's what I got. Interested in feedback before moving forward. Please PM me or post in the thread if you're interested in an adapter plate kit (includes hardware) for $~150.

Attaching the plate to the track so it can't slide off is tricky. Here's the system as it's currently design:

1. Touring toe bolts through plastic adapter plate (white) into stainless steel nuts (green) press fit into the plate. Will require Loctite, and generally the screws should never need to be removed. Currently accommodates 30x39mm toe pattern (most modern toes), 30x26.5/27mm toe pattern (plum toes, others)), and Dynafit 5 hole toe pattern. Toe + White Adapter plate assembly slides on and off the toe track together.

2. The metal attack toe track will require two ~7mm holes drilled at the front and back in the middle, to allow the M5 thumb screws (red) to pass through the track into binding freedom inserts (pink) installed into the ski itself (tan). The front of the boot will be in the same location on the ski as it is with the demo toe installed in the middle of it's adjustment range. Thumb screws will need vibratite.

-Optional: The front corners of the toe track could be cut off to save some weight (~10 grams). Could also drill some weight saving holes down the middle of the track (maybe another 10g savings).

3. The M5 Thumb Screws (red) are installed with Attack Demo toe as well (the demo toe fits in-between them). This prevents the binding freedom inserts from filling with snow or ice. Current design still allows for 24mm of fore/aft adjustment with the demo toe for different boot center locations or boot sizes.

Order of operation while skiing (starting with only the toe track, heel track, and risers (permanently) installed on the ski:

Going Uphill

1. Install Rear Thumb Screw (Red)
2. Slide the Adapter Plate (white) and Touring Toe Assembly Onto the toe track from the front of the ski
3. Install the front Thumb Screw (red). This may be difficult. Will likely need to remove glove.
4. Step in and skin up (flip risers if desired)

Going Downhill

1. Release Boot From Touring Toe
2. Remove front thumb screw (red)
3. Slide Touring Toe +Adapter Plate Assembly off the front of the track
4. Slide the Attack Demo Toe onto the track from the front of the ski.
5. Install the Front Thumb Screw (red)
6. Slide the Heel Piece + Brake on the Rear Track from the tail of the ski.
7. Ski Down


Questions for the Board

1. How do people feel about requiring binding freedom inserts? I feel like this will provide a very solid mount with the touring toe/adapter plate installed.

--The alternative would be using nylon locknuts press fit into the white plate at rear (possibly the front) where the thumb screws currently are. Then the thumb screws would thread through the plate/nut, and into clearance M5 holes drilled into the metal toe track only (so not going into he ski itself). This makes me weary, at the rear that would only be 2mm of contact between the screw and the metal plate. At the front, the toe track is "raised up" about 1.75mm, which is better, but the tech toe lever will likely prevent having a thumb screw in the front, so we're stuck with 1 or two thumb screws at the rear.

2. I think having ~2cm of fore/aft adjustment for the demo toe is worth making the adapter plate (white) and toe track a little longer. If I went down to only ~8mm off adjustment, could maybe save 30g total from the plate a toe track. This will also make the thumb screw harder to install with the demo toe (less clearance).

Open to any other thoughts/suggestions. Here are the logistics with the current design:

Toe Track (Marginally Cut Down): ~150g
Heel track (Marginally Cut Down): 90g
Voile Brake Riser (cut down): ~60g
Plastic Adapter Plate + Hardware: ~90g
---------------------------------------------------------------
= 390g + Tech Toe of your Choice. I'm using Dynafit Superlite 2.0 so +80g

470g On the up, with full alpine on the down and 2cm of boot center adjustability sounds pretty great to me


Cost:

Adapter Plate (Pair): $140
Thumb Screws (3): $2 (Includes spare)
Binding Freedom Inserts (2) : $3
Pozi Machine Screws for Toes (8): $6
Shipping: $9

Total: $160

If anyone is interested, Level Nine is Selling New Attack2 Demo Bindings for $190 (using $10 off coupon SNOWALERT ) https://www.levelninesports.com/tyro...-ski-bindings/
Also a pair in gear swap.

I bought Dynafit Superlite 2.0 (Z12)'s for $280 from Snowinn with coupon BF15. Shipped in 2 days. On preorder now though. https://www.snowinn.com/ski-store/dy...12/137274132/p
Skimo has lots of toes for sale individually: https://skimo.co/dynafit-binding-toes
Cast Toes for 126 at $90 should work too: https://casttouring.com/en-us/products/tech-toe-single/

Voile Toe Riser Options ($36): https://www.voile.com/voile-sts-tour...-assembly.html
OR: https://www.voile.com/voile-splitboa...ing-heels.html

All in all you could do this from scratch for:

$160 (adapter plates), $190 (Demo bindings), $36 (heel risers), $180 (tech toes) = $565. Around what new touring bindings cost these days.

I'm exploring other options for the adapter plates to see if we can get the cost down more.

[Muggydude]

My second design proposal is a lot simpler. Basically, you mount the toe track with 4 binding freedom inserts. Then when skiing downhill the toe track is attached as normal with 4 short Pozi Flathead screws. When skinning up, an adapter plate with the tech toe is placed over the toe track and bolted through with 4 long pozi screws through both the adapter plate and toe track.

The only negatives to this are the screws will be a pain (require no gloves, easy to lose). A little electric screwdriver can be had very cheap ($20) and will get the job down in a minute or two. Icing could be a problem with the adapter plate fitting over the toe track well. Having a brush, spraying track with something to prevent sticking, should solve that easily enough. Or stick the tracks in your pants haha.

Going up:

1. Slide Off Attack Demo Toe and Heel
2. Remove 4 M5 Pozi Flathead screws
3. Scrub Plate with brush/chisel/warm water/whatever if necessary
4. Place Adapter Plate with tech Toe Assembly on top of toe Track
5. Bolt through adapter plate and toe track into binding freedom inserts with 4 long M5 Pozi Lowhead Screws
6. Step Into Toe Piece, user heel risers if desired.
7. Skin Up

Going Down:

1. Remove 4 M5 Pozi Flathead screws
2. Lift Off Adapter Plate_Tech Toe Assembly
3. Scrub Plate with brush/chisel/warm water/whatever if necessary
4. Screw 4 short flathead pozi screws through demo toe track into binding freedom inserts
3. Slide Attack demo Toe and Heels On
4. Ski Down


Toe Track (Marginally Cut Down): ~140g
Heel track (Marginally Cut Down): 90g
Voile Brake Riser (cut down): ~60g
Plastic Adapter Plate + Hardware: ~55g
---------------------------------------------------------------
= 345g + Tech Toe of your Choice. I'm using Dynafit Superlite 2.0 so +80g

425g On the up, with full alpine on the down and 6cm of boot center adjustability on the way down.


Cost:

Adapter Plate (Pair): $90
Binding Freedom Inserts (8) : $12
Pozi Machine Screws for Toes (16): $12
Stainless Steel Nylon Locknuts (10): 2
Shipping: $9

Total: $125

[steveski]

Wow, you have put in a lot of work on this concept. Very thorough and appreciate the step by step layout.

For me, the idea of added inserts, drilling, or exchanging machine screws on snow takes away from the original intention (and simplicity) of using existing attack demo tracks on heavy, alpine skis. As you said, it could be a great option for a new setup with more versatility than any existing touring binding.

I know I'd find myself grabbing skis with touring bindings to avoid the on hill swap...

[Muggydude]

Bump. Anyone interested in these?


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[SupreChicken]

I think I’m on team “just drill them into the ski”

[Just Looking]

Hey Muggy - I've been watching this, and while I see you have done a great deal of work on the designs, they are a bit fiddly, especially at the top of the hill getting ready to head down. In my own mind I can't see the benefit over just mounting the pins ahead of the track. I hate to be negative, but the simple option is usually the best.

[Muggydude]

Yeah. I guess to me the question would be whether the 4 extra holes drilled in the ski, and the +5cm toe position on the way up are worth direct mounting like that. Seems like that’s enough to cause annoyance with kick turns and skinning up in general, but I’ve never done it so I can’t say


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[charlesj]

"The alternative would be using nylon locknuts press fit into the white plate at rear (possibly the front) where the thumb screws currently are. Then the thumb screws would thread through the plate/nut, and into clearance M5 holes drilled into the metal toe track only (so not going into he ski itself). This makes me wary, at the rear that would only be 2mm of contact between the screw and the metal plate. At the front, the toe track is "raised up" about 1.75mm, which is better, but the tech toe lever will likely prevent having a thumb screw in the front, so we're stuck with 1 or two thumb screws at the rear."

Very enthused about this project. I will probably be down for a pair of plates. The variation above seems like a very good idea

[ntblanks]

First off, props to Muggydude for putting in the work and creativity to mock these options up. You rock.

They seem pretty stout. For me - I'm looking for something really minimalist, which may not be (a) safe or (b) possible. Anyway, I'm out on this one. But I love when TGR's engineer types get all up in a problem and solve it for the community. 'preciate you guys.

[Muggydude]

Hmm. I’m thinking the fiddle factor may be difficult too, even using thumb screws. I may explore chopping off the top half a demo toe and screwing/epoxying a tech toe into that as well


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[Muggydude]

So I was looking at my older Attack Demo bindings (V1) and I think I can probably harvest the lower platform from those pretty well. Basically cut off/remove the top part, utilize two existing holes in the binding (~30mm apart) and drill two more near the front of the binding. Should be a pretty solid setup, and allows for me to A, remove the tech toe if I ever want to (no epoxy) and B: utilize the little locking lever mechanism to keep the toe assembly on the track.

Adds about 15mm of stack height to the tech toe.

Red lines in the first photo are where I might cut off the rest of it.


Edit: I think using toe pieces with 30x39mm mount pattern will be cutting it (too) close with the front holes nearing the edge of the plastic on the demo platform. 30x27mm on plum/atk/dynafit classic mount pattern would be much safer.

I’m going to go for it, should be pretty straightforward and work well. Will use SS locknuts set into the demo toe platform similar to the ideas prior. Total cost still isn’t terrible.

[charlesj]

Quick transition and no small pieces to fiddle with is worth the stack height. I have an extra set of first gen Attack Demo (that I believe I scored from you, Muggy) I'm ready to hack them up too. Keep us informed. Thanks

[Muggydude]

I’ll post a how-to when I do it. I’m 95% confident this will work really really well


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[margotron]

Muggy, admire the effort as a well known tinkerer.

The one piece I'm struggling a little bit to follow (and I am following beacuse I am going to be building a Lindahl setup soon, though probably with wardens) is what problem this solves? Just not having the tech toe and the alpine binding both attached on the way down?

[Muggydude]

Not having to skin up with an extra 5cm of tail, mainly. The tech toe boot center has to be way ahead of the alpine toe boot center. Having 4 extra holes in the ski aren’t ideal either.

Again, maybe I’m wrong and the tech toe being +5cm is not an issue? But with a long ski (these will be going on my 189 Kusalas) that seems like a lot of tail for kick turns and would mess with traction on steep climbs too.

You can also share the skis now with different boot sizes without having to worry about where the heel risers will hit.


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[Lindahl]

I don't think it would mess with traction much, but kick turns are likely less fun with 5cm more tail. While it hasn't been a problem for her yet, she does have long legs, good flexibility and shorter skis, so it works for her.