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05-25-2019, 08:42 AM #51
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05-25-2019, 08:49 AM #52Funky But Chic
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I'll never understand how you can pass a dying person on the way up and just keep going. On the way down yeah I guess I get it, especially if you're in rough shape yourself.
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05-25-2019, 09:22 AM #53
Everyone knew the risks when they showed up. Why in the hell should I stop my ascent in an effort to help some stranger? Seriously? What makes any of you think that a climber has some moral obligation to assist in a rescue up there in the "death zone"?
Fwiw, I'd happily stop my ascent or descent to help my climbing partners as I feel like we made a pact when we teamed up in the first place.Brandine: Now Cletus, if I catch you with pig lipstick on your collar one more time you ain't gonna be allowed to sleep in the barn no more!
Cletus: Duly noted.
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05-25-2019, 09:49 AM #54
Les Tetons? I already said it did. : - )
Helping someone down who cannot stand and walk is impossible at that elevation. Even the guides and Sherpas are at their limit just to get themselves up and down. Even if the effort were not overwhelming the time it would take for a team to lower someone with ropes would almost certainly kill the would-be rescuers. Add to that the fact that very few people are thinking clearly at that elevation, even with oxygen. In fact, a number of Sherpas, sent to try to help distressed climbers, have died in the attempt. I'm sure there are situations where someone has been abandoned who could have been helped--maybe they ran out of oxygen and could have been revived by more, but for the most part rescue isn't an option.
In 1953, on an American expedition to as-yet-unclimbed K2, Art Gilkey was stricken by a blood clot to the lungs high on the mountain. His team mates were attempting to lower him at an agonizingly slow pace and were forced to bivouac in a crevasse. In the morning Gilkey was gone; many think he untied himself and threw himself down the mountain because he knew his friends would die trying to save him. (His body was found 40 years later in a melting glacier at the base of the mountain.)
It is or should be understood that you make it up and down Everest on your own two feet or not at all.
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05-25-2019, 09:57 AM #55
Les Tetons? I already said it did. : - )
Helping someone down who cannot stand and walk is impossible at that elevation. Even the guides and Sherpas are at their limit just to get themselves up and down. Even if the effort were not overwhelming the time it would take for a team to lower someone with ropes would almost certainly kill the would-be rescuers. Add to that the fact that very few people are thinking clearly at that elevation, even with oxygen. In fact, a number of Sherpas, sent to try to help distressed climbers, have died in the attempt. I'm sure there are situations where someone has been abandoned who could have been helped--maybe they ran out of oxygen and could have been revived by more, but for the most part rescue isn't an option. Even at Rocky Mountain elevations evacuating a disabled climber requires time, a large trained team, and/or a helicopter--none of which are available on Everest.
In 1953, on an American expedition to as-yet-unclimbed K2, Art Gilkey was stricken by a blood clot to the lungs high on the mountain. His team mates were attempting to lower him at an agonizingly slow pace and were forced to bivouac in a crevasse. In the morning Gilkey was gone; many think he untied himself and threw himself down the mountain because he knew his friends would die trying to save him. (His body was found 40 years later in a melting glacier at the base of the mountain.)
It is or should be understood that you make it up and down Everest on your own two feet or not at all.
Watch or read Touching the Void.
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05-25-2019, 10:06 AM #56
Yeah, My interest drops as soon as dead bodies line the way. There’s something IMO wrong or disrespectful about it. Oh here’s a dead climber, someone’s loved one, let’s step over him/her and keep climbing for the glorious summit. It’s too hard to recover or bury them, so let’s push ourselves to deaths door for the summit instead. WTF
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05-25-2019, 10:08 AM #57
Why not setup a second line to belay climbers out of the death zone? Surely there is a way given the hoards that are now on that route and the knowledge that this is a common occurrence.
At what objective point is a person to be left for dead?
What determines if 'more oxygen' can/not help or some other 'medical advantage' can no longer be used?
At what DBDP (Dead Body Density Point) does a solution become required for the safety and hygiene of the actual mountain?OH, MY GAWD! ―John Hillerman Big Billie Eilish fan.
But that's a quibble to what PG posted (at first, anyway, I haven't read his latest book) ―jono
we are not arguing about ski boots or fashionable clothing or spageheti O's which mean nothing in the grand scheme ― XXX-er
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05-25-2019, 10:10 AM #58Banned
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05-25-2019, 10:19 AM #59
For the visitors, it's truly the first worldliest of first world problems. I'm far more concerned about the health of the sherpers and guides than their clients.
Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!
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05-25-2019, 10:30 AM #60
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05-25-2019, 10:33 AM #61
There isn't anything weak or unworthy about helping others when possible - or looking for solutions to make said possible. It would be told that a lot of the developments that make high alpinism possible were invented out of the desire to help people and make the impossible, possible. 200 people lined up to summit, can't help down a few climbers, is either because they don't have heart or have become so peak-greedy-bagging that they can't communicate to even attempt to help each other. Tower of Babel.
OH, MY GAWD! ―John Hillerman Big Billie Eilish fan.
But that's a quibble to what PG posted (at first, anyway, I haven't read his latest book) ―jono
we are not arguing about ski boots or fashionable clothing or spageheti O's which mean nothing in the grand scheme ― XXX-er
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05-25-2019, 10:36 AM #62
Just imagine how bad the crowds would be if there was some Marine like collective pact that everyone should at least attempt a rescue. It would be like those many stories we read of rich gapers just giving up and calling for a meat sled at Vail.
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05-25-2019, 10:37 AM #63OH, MY GAWD! ―John Hillerman Big Billie Eilish fan.
But that's a quibble to what PG posted (at first, anyway, I haven't read his latest book) ―jono
we are not arguing about ski boots or fashionable clothing or spageheti O's which mean nothing in the grand scheme ― XXX-er
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05-25-2019, 10:38 AM #64
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05-25-2019, 10:40 AM #65
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05-25-2019, 10:44 AM #66Registered User
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People dying on Mt. Everest, what else is new
If one of those people struggling accepts the help of anyone - on the way up or down - they are putting that other person life at risk too just so that they may have a chance at survival - because of the choice they made to travel in the death zone. That seems worse than someone not stopping to help. Sorry, pal. Have a nice eternity, Everest climber # 47,802. Just keep the line moving or get out of the way
Reminds of the tripe Krakauer was pushing trying to vilify other climbers just to make his story better.Last edited by mcski; 05-25-2019 at 12:47 PM.
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05-25-2019, 11:31 AM #67
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05-25-2019, 11:54 AM #68
Eh, nobody goes to Everest anymore, too crowded.
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05-25-2019, 12:40 PM #69
So just a long ass rope down the face that they didn't climb up and probably isn't near their camp? I want to make sure I'm getting this correct. Who is tasked with manning the top and the bottom so that these half dead people get down safely? Surely they can't safely rappel or even tie themselves in.
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05-25-2019, 12:44 PM #70
Sounds like they need to install a magic carpet.
Hell at the rate people are marching up there in a ridiculous conga line they might as well install escalators both up and down. Seeing that long line of people doesn't put me in mind of a nice climb. I don't go out into nature to stand in a queue.“When you see something that is not right, not just, not fair, you have a moral obligation to say something. To do something." Rep. John Lewis
Kindness is a bridge between all people
Dunkin’ Donuts Worker Dances With Customer Who Has Autism
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05-25-2019, 12:45 PM #71
People dying on Mt. Everest, what else is new
They should erect big fans that keep the body on the ascent route rather than fall line and have a counterweight system so that the bodies can be lowered to camp III unmanned.
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05-25-2019, 01:01 PM #72Banned
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I understand the realities a rescue on Everest and I know pretty much everyone that attempts it knows as well.
My issue with it is the number of people willing to put themselves in that position... and guides and guiding companies willing to profit from it.
And the media and culture willing to glorify it.
Most Americans, though? Do they stop and help people? I've watched countless people pass/step over homeless people clearly in duress without appearing to give a second thought. Someone else will help.
Is it that much different than the meritocracy we currently live in?
We watch people lose everything they worked for because they get sick or injured... and think what? They knew the risks? They should have saved more or they should have bought more insurance...
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05-25-2019, 01:07 PM #73Registered User
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back in the day I was flying Toro to Vancover 1st class Ward Air where I ended up sitting next to to Laurie Skreslet the first Canadian to summit Everest, at that point he was on the talk show/motivational speaker tour trying to cash in while he could
On the 82 Canex expedition Climbers died, sherpa's died, people quit, so being asshole I am I said " wasn't there was some controversy on that climb ? " he answered yes and changed the subject but a couple of those airline 1/2 bottles of french wine later Laurie spontaneously openned up, almost out of nowhere he said " you know when you climb Everest you thro your life away and some people just were not able to accept that "
climbing everest in 82 was a little different than now but people are still dying
I wonder what the ratio is now that its a commercial business ?
if you google deaths on everest the stats are there > 300 people have died tryingLast edited by XXX-er; 05-25-2019 at 01:38 PM.
Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know
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05-25-2019, 01:27 PM #74
^^^ That's the crux of the biscuit right there. You go play up there then you do so knowing that your survival is first, not a certainty, and second, entirely your own responsibility.
You choose to go recreate in the "death zone" and shit goes haywire. Now what? What is you self rescue or your legacy is becoming the next Mr Green Boots signpost along the route. If you manage to get up above 20k' in the Himalaya without internalizing that lesson then I guess you are welcome to second guess the actions of those who choose to keep ascending or descending while you are in distress but it's not going to change the fact that you're proper fuct.Brandine: Now Cletus, if I catch you with pig lipstick on your collar one more time you ain't gonna be allowed to sleep in the barn no more!
Cletus: Duly noted.
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05-25-2019, 01:50 PM #75
Surprised there's been no mention of Caroline Gleich being there right now in 8 pages. I think she's cool. But she seems very divisive for the TGR crowd.
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