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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuco View Post
    Drawing file back across work surface is what trashes files
    That's what I think he means by "pulling" the file - going in the direction of the handle tang, against the angle of the file cut . . . but yeah, I both push and pull as long as the file is oriented correctly. And I flip the ski to use the same hand with my side edge bevel like the Atomic dude, too. Still can't ski like Mikaela or Marcel.

  2. #52
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    I took it as he prefers to 'cut' on the pull(called draw filing), not pull back on the file.
    On another note, why buy sidewall planer when you can sharpen the tip of a file and plane it.Click image for larger version. 

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  3. #53
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    I just kinda assumed one would know what drawfiling is but ... fucking dentists eh
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  4. #54
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    If anyone is confused about filing direction--for ski files that are held by single angle or multiple angle file holders, push or pull, but only in the direction indicated by the little, hard to read arrow on the edge of the file. For files with a tang, push away from the tang. You could hold the file backwards--tang end away from you--and pull, but awkward. Pushing or pulling a file in the wrong direction--whether drawing it back after a proper stroke or just filing in the wrong direction--dulls the file.

  5. #55
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    Iíll repeat the only thing that does any sort of damage to a ski by going tail to tip is scraping.. you can brush a ski with the gnarliest steel brush from tail to tip and it wonít do any damage or create a slower ski etc. I used to have to prep WC speed skis and part of the initial prep was brushing them backwards with a steel brush. That being said tip to tail is commonplace when brushing. Waxing it makes zero difference.

    Always pull the file. Clearly you need to make sure the file is oriented correctly but I would have thought that would be common sense. Pushing the file is a recipe for cutting the shit out of yourself and just being inefficient. Iíve probably prepped/tuned more than 5k skis in my day and never once had the file slip and cut my hand. If youíre having to press that hard the file is dull. You either need a new one or you should break the end off the file to access the sharper teeth. You can break a file quite a few times until youíre down to say the last 2Ē of teeth. This only applies to those using side edge guides.

    When you put a ski in a vice on its side base is always facing away from you.

    For those looking to keep their scrapers nice and sharp buy some drywall sanding screen and tape it down to your bench. Run the scraper back and forth. Amazing how easy it it to quickly sharpen it and cut your scraping time in half.

    Yes you can maintain your edges with diamond stones. However thereís nothing that can replicate what you clan accomplish with a file. Depending on a lot of variables Iíd break out a file every 2-3 uses if the snow is really hard. Stone in between. You would have to file the shit out of your skis 4-5 times a week in order to file through the edge. Only time Iíve ever seen that is athletes at the highest level having their skis tuned almost every day by a technician.

    Increasing the side edge bevel does not make them ďsharperĒ. You can create higher edge angles on harder snow with more side edge bevel. They also dull faster. 1-2* side bevel is fine for anything other than stuff thatís sub 80 and dedicated for groomers.

    If youíre skiing 110+ skis all day in soft snow it almost doesnít matter what your edges look like. Just as long as their dull in the rocketed sections and have plenty of base bevel.

    I ran the race room at Volkl when I first graduated college. Had to tune/prep/grind hundreds and hundreds of skis for athletes of the highest level, magazine tests, trade fairs, etc. 11 summers between mammoth and Hood tuning a crazy amount of skis by hand every day. Prepping my demo fleet by hand every year for the last 17 years. (80-100 pairs usually). The guy that taught me everything I know won Olympic and World Championship medals as a technician on the WC and now runs one of the premier tuning shops on the east coast.

  6. #56
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    Pushing a file is called straight filing. It is no more/less efficient than draw filing.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by couchsending View Post
    Iíll repeat the only thing that does any sort of damage to a ski by going tail to tip is scraping.. you can brush a ski with the gnarliest steel brush from tail to tip and it wonít do any damage or create a slower ski etc. I used to have to prep WC speed skis and part of the initial prep was brushing them backwards with a steel brush. That being said tip to tail is commonplace when brushing. Waxing it makes zero difference.

    Always pull the file. Clearly you need to make sure the file is oriented correctly but I would have thought that would be common sense..
    so what exactly does scraping in the wrong direction do, i'm assuming something to do with microscopic hairs of P-tex and were you able to prove this in speed tests?


    There was a rule in 1st year shop class about which hand the tang goes in, left for pulling or if you are going to push the file ( and make the world stop turning ) tang in the right hand, Altho on-line filing tutorials talk about draw filing both pushing & pulling If you were pushing the file it wouldn't technicaly be draw filfing, ?
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    so what exactly does scraping in the wrong direction do, i'm assuming something to do with microscopic hairs of P-tex and were you able to prove this in speed tests?


    There was a rule in 1st year shop class about which hand the tang goes in, left for pulling or if you are going to push the file ( and make the world stop turning ) tang in the right hand, Altho on-line filing tutorials talk about draw filing both pushing & pulling If you were pushing the file it wouldn't technicaly be draw filfing, ?
    remember you don't tune since you only ski pow, so all that info is irrelevant.

    But yes, reverse scrape tail to tip can serve to pull up ptex and create more microhairs which create drag.

    Rec ski edges don't necessilarly need to be sharp, but it sure helps if they are smooth.

    Especially if you enjoy trying to go faster than gravity.
    Move upside and let the man go through...

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    so what exactly does scraping in the wrong direction do, i'm assuming something to do with microscopic hairs of P-tex and were you able to prove this in speed tests?


    There was a rule in 1st year shop class about which hand the tang goes in, left for pulling or if you are going to push the file ( and make the world stop turning ) tang in the right hand, Altho on-line filing tutorials talk about draw filing both pushing & pulling If you were pushing the file it wouldn't technicaly be draw filfing, ?
    Yeah scraping the wrong way causes damage to the p-Tex base and could cause the hairs (or whatever you want to call them) to face the wrong direction, essentially slowing the ski down. The guy I learned from was looking at bases through a microscope. Thatís all I know.

    You file pushers have fun pushing.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mofro261 View Post
    remember you don't tune since you only ski pow, so all that info is irrelevant.
    Hardly irreverent actualy cuz once a year we put on skin suits and drink massive quantities of beer at the Shussboomer citizen downhill, this year was the 35th annual and due to giving a fuck about wax ( an 80$ piece of 0 to plus 10 tribloc ) for a change I managed to win the 60+ class on a rather short set of AtomicRedster Cameltoe FIS GS skis, besides the touring I was also the oldest person in the slush cup by a good 20 yars ... gotta do it all eh
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  11. #61
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    make every day count

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by couchsending View Post
    Yeah scraping the wrong way causes damage to the p-Tex base and could cause the hairs (or whatever you want to call them) to face the wrong direction, essentially slowing the ski down. The guy I learned from was looking at bases through a microscope. That’s all I know.

    You file pushers have fun pushing.
    Fortunately, I can do both. Pushing might technically be more dangerous. People should do what they are comfortable with. But to say "always pull" is just wrong. Just like world renowned life coach 'Dirty' Harry Callahan instructs, "a man's gotta know his limitations"
    In all seriousness though. Most of us do not have a WC tuning/prep bench @ our disposal. I gotta make my shit happen in less than ideal circumstances. I gotta do what I gotta do(viceless, benchless for example). I, like you, have also tuned thousands of skis(my tech days are over). High production shop, but we hand finished every ski. Tuned plenty 'o race skis too. Granted, they were not WC skis, but not sure how germaine that is to the situation as 99.9% of the skiing public would be totally outgunned by a WC tune/race skis. Hell, I can't remember what the machine/procedure was called, but our shop even had a little machine that would cut a slight groove in the edge about as long as the boot/binding system. Doesn't mean I wanted it cuz it was 'race' tech.
    Everything else you said I agree with

  13. #63
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    I heard of that ^^ a ski bud told me he was trying to market that shit back in the day nobody was interested
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  14. #64
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    Well, he made at least 1 sale

  15. #65
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    My skis must all be broken. Amazed I can get from the lift to the bar

    If youre gonna talk microscopes and microhairs on bases, at least admit that any difference is nullified after a couple runs.

    Which might matter if we we are prepping for a race and the ski needs to perform optimally the second it hits the snow. But does that describe the people here?

    Your universal truth applies to your universe. If your instructions are limited to sub-80 race skis, say that. The tune on your 78mm redster has nothin to do with a 108 freestyle ski. Do those racers go downhill backwards? I forget.

    Pick any discipline and the same applies. Do the same margins apply to a full carbon road bike and a full suspension 29er? Does a formula 1 wrench tell weekend rock crawlers theyíre doing it wrong? Does an orthopedic surgeon tell a neurosurgeon how to cut bone?

    Those of you that have tuned thousands of skis, I respect your experience. I have no doubt itís invaluable in your field. But like, awareness.
    Buy used - mount your own skis - build a quiver

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkiLyft View Post
    Couple-o-days at Crested Butte or Big Sky should put a proper tune on them.


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
    Puts some good structure on your base too.

    In general, you will use diamonds waaaay more than a file. What happened to dipstkck's tuning guide? That's a good one.
    No longer stuck.

    Quote Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn View Post
    Just an uneducated guess.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    the big question in my mind

    if y'all think you need to detune that much

    why are you bothering to tune at all ?
    Deburring is good.
    No longer stuck.

    Quote Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn View Post
    Just an uneducated guess.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by margotron View Post
    My skis must all be broken. Amazed I can get from the lift to the bar

    If youre gonna talk microscopes and microhairs on bases, at least admit that any difference is nullified after a couple runs.

    Which might matter if we we are prepping for a race and the ski needs to perform optimally the second it hits the snow. But does that describe the people here?

    Your universal truth applies to your universe. If your instructions are limited to sub-80 race skis, say that. The tune on your 78mm redster has nothin to do with a 108 freestyle ski. Do those racers go downhill backwards? I forget.

    Pick any discipline and the same applies. Do the same margins apply to a full carbon road bike and a full suspension 29er? Does a formula 1 wrench tell weekend rock crawlers theyíre doing it wrong? Does an orthopedic surgeon tell a neurosurgeon how to cut bone?

    Those of you that have tuned thousands of skis, I respect your experience. I have no doubt itís invaluable in your field. But like, awareness.
    well actualy the competative class guys trying to win the next years bragging rights wax and carry their skis to the start so the skis only get 2 runs and yer suposed to say switch not backwards eh
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  19. #69
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    Unintended positive consequence of skiing lots of gravel was a pro level base structure and edge detune for soft, moist/wet snow. To get the hairs off, just finish with a few laps down a pure sand pitch; buffs the base nice and smooth.

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    What if the hokey pokey really is what it's all about?

  20. #70
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    Without knowing the original bevel on a pair of all purpose touring skis can I just a run a file at 90 to get slightly sharper edges? Or is this a waste of time (I don't care if my edges are super sharp) and I should just deburr with a diamond or gummi stone?

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by NWFlow View Post
    Without knowing the original bevel on a pair of all purpose touring skis can I just a run a file at 90 to get slightly sharper edges? Or is this a waste of time (I don't care if my edges are super sharp) and I should just deburr with a diamond or gummi stone?
    And these skis are hammered so just looking for a quick solution to make the edges a little smoother / maybe slightly sharper. Go with Doug's method?

  22. #72
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    I would just go 90 degree but then I always go 90 degree, you can see how much material the file is taking off which will tell you lts about the angles by using machinist die on the edge

    also known as a sharpie

    do you have a guide & file? Back in the day before I had a file holder I would just clamp a file to a piece of 2x4 with a 90 degree edge using a c-clamp
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    I would just go 90 degree but then I always go 90 degree, you can see how much material the file is taking off which will tell you lts about the angles by using machinist die on the edge

    also known as a sharpie

    do you have a guide & file? Back in the day before I had a file holder I would just clamp a file to a piece of 2x4 with a 90 degree edge using a c-clamp
    File, no guide. Your described solution was kinda what I was thinking, hence why I was hoping to go for 90.

    These skis have around 200 days on them without a professional tune. Originally a 1 degree side, but I doubt I Will notice a difference. Waxing makes more of a difference but wondering if doing something to the edges will help skiing grabby, hard wind slabs

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by NWFlow View Post
    File, no guide. Your described solution was kinda what I was thinking, hence why I was hoping to go for 90.

    These skis have around 200 days on them without a professional tune. Originally a 1 degree side, but I doubt I Will notice a difference. Waxing makes more of a difference but wondering if doing something to the edges will help skiing grabby, hard wind slabs
    Without knowing what "no professional tune in 200 days" means, and given the basic nature of your question, I'd start from square 1 and get a true bar on the base to see what I'm up against. Heck! I do that with new skis.

    Squirrelly bottoms make for squirrelly skis.

    None of this is to dismiss either the Q&P or poor man's guide for the side edge.

    Everyone wants to take shortcuts. You have all Summer and most of the Fall to develop your tuning chops. Just do it.

    ... Thom
    Galibier Design
    crafting technology in service of music

  25. #75
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    Dec 2008
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    Thanks, guess I meant they have never been on a basegrinder. I had a good system prior where I could make most things work with a ptex gun, an old base grinder, and a gummi but don't have access base grinder anymore (live on a remote island / hit a lot of rocks / no shops in the area). I'll work on my file, ptex, and waxing skills though!

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