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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post

    Someone like Semenya is recognizably female at birth and raised that way.
    ...
    Also, Semenya is not a man, she has male and female characteristics. Asking her to compete as a man would be far more unfair than allowing her to compete as a woman. Asking her to take drugs to lower T to compete as a woman is absurd, especially in this era of concern re doping.
    This.

  2. #52
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    But .. ok you allow her to compete and win with much higher levels of T because she was born packing a set of balls. Hidden but there. So you're saying her right to compete ( which means she will win and anyone with that characteristics will win) over rides the rights of those who are conventionally female right to ever win. Because if she were to compete as a male she would lose and that is unfair. Though she shares more attributes with males than she does with females. XY , looks like a guy, has a pair of balls etc.

    So its ok to be unfair to the many all long as you are not unfair to the few? well of course in some ways all winners have some advantage and life is unfair. It will just be funny in 8 years every winner in most female sports will be intersex or trans. Which in the context of the culture wars will be pretty funny. My wife is pissed about this , I just find it funny.
    Mrs. Dougw- "I can see how one of your relatives could have been killed by an angry mob."

    Quote Originally Posted by ill-advised strategy View Post
    dougW, you motherfucking dirty son of a bitch.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    Someone like Semenya is recognizably female at birth and raised that way.
    She was only "recognizably female at birth" because she doesn't have a cock, to be blunt about it. I don't think that fact alone gives her the right to compete with women. There's absolutely no question she's an incredible athlete, but I also don't think there's much question her high testosterone levels give her an advantage over women.

  4. #54
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    I haven't read anything that has actually confirmed here biology anywhere. You have some first hand knowledge?

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by DougW View Post
    But .. ok you allow her to compete and win with much higher levels of T because she was born packing a set of balls. Hidden but there. So you're saying her right to compete ( which means she will win and anyone with that characteristics will win) over rides the rights of those who are conventionally female right to ever win. Because if she were to compete as a male she would lose and that is unfair. Though she shares more attributes with males than she does with females. XY , looks like a guy, has a pair of balls etc.

    So its ok to be unfair to the many all long as you are not unfair to the few? well of course in some ways all winners have some advantage and life is unfair. It will just be funny in 8 years every winner in most female sports will be intersex or trans. Which in the context of the culture wars will be pretty funny. My wife is pissed about this , I just find it funny.
    if she is in fact 46 XY she does not have balls, she has streak gonads--fibrous, functionless, neither balls nor ovaries.
    I shouldn't have to repeat this--it is not your chromosomes that make you male or female. It is your genes, and how they are expressed--which genes are turned on and which are turned off. It is not black and white. That is why someone with a Y chromosome can have external female genitalia.

    Also, it is not only testosterone that is the difference between men and women. Eliminating testosterone does not turn a man into a woman. I almost--almost--wish Semenya would suppress her testosterone for a while; I predict she will still win, maybe not quite so convincingly. So in that sense allowing her to compete if she suppresses her T probably is just as irrational as the rest of the policy.

    In any case, there are many disorders of sexual differentiation and in the 46 XY variety different levels of testosterone (the adrenal glands make testosterone but not as much as testes). Further speculation re what is going on with Semenya, in the absence of a primary source medical report, is a waste of time. Whatever the sources the general media have for reporting what they say is her condition, it is very likely that the true medical facts will be misunderstood and misreported.

    What is certain is that trying to understand this on the basis of junior high biology class is a waste of time, but that is what the IAAF is doing. It is way more complicated than that.

    BTW--46 XY's are typically treated with female hormones and will menstruate. Is that girly enough for you?

    How about people with Marfan's Syndrome and acromegaly--diseases, the latter of which is produced by excess growth hormone--that can produce increased height. Should they be banned from basketball and volleyball? Should biologic advantage due to disease be treated differently than biologic advantage due to "normal" inheritance? Isn't that discriminating against people with disabilities?

  6. #56
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    So does that make a difference to the answer/position?

    A she has high T for some reason not relating to having hidden balls , XY and no womb

    B she has high T for having hidden balls , XY

    is your answer to A different than B?? A can compete without treatment and B competes as male or competes as female with treatment or same as A ? do the details really matter to your answer?
    Mrs. Dougw- "I can see how one of your relatives could have been killed by an angry mob."

    Quote Originally Posted by ill-advised strategy View Post
    dougW, you motherfucking dirty son of a bitch.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by DougW View Post
    So does that make a difference to the answer/position?

    A she has high T for some reason not relating to having hidden balls , XY and no womb

    B she has high T for having hidden balls , XY

    is your answer to A different than B?? A can compete without treatment and B competes as male or competes as female with treatment or same as A ? do the details really matter to your answer?
    If she has or had a penis, does not have and never had a vagina or uterus, and has functional testes she should compete as a man. Otherwise as a woman. As far a hidden balls--I don't know where you're getting that, but stop.

  8. #58
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    Ok its complicated but... turning this around what is your line going from A not lowering T to B) lowering T to C) has to compete as male? or all of this just logical gymnastics when the answer is anyone who wants to say they are a female is a female regardless of T levels, balls and even dicks? Again I don't care as I'm not female so if female sports is destroyed its just kind of funny. Wife will be pissed though.
    Mrs. Dougw- "I can see how one of your relatives could have been killed by an angry mob."

    Quote Originally Posted by ill-advised strategy View Post
    dougW, you motherfucking dirty son of a bitch.

  9. #59
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    cross posting going on but , undescended testes = hidden balls , that has been reported or maybe just assumed plus no womb
    Mrs. Dougw- "I can see how one of your relatives could have been killed by an angry mob."

    Quote Originally Posted by ill-advised strategy View Post
    dougW, you motherfucking dirty son of a bitch.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    Also, it is not only testosterone that is the difference between men and women. Eliminating testosterone does not turn a man into a woman. I almost--almost--wish Semenya would suppress her testosterone for a while; I predict she will still win, maybe not quite so convincingly. So in that sense allowing her to compete if she suppresses her T probably is just as irrational as the rest of the policy.
    This is the "best" part of the whole circus right here. She's had the advantages she was born with for all this time and used them to train and her conditioning is not going to vanish just because her T levels get dropped--unless there are other side effects, which would just be perfect. Are they going to constantly monitor her T levels away from competition? Ridiculous.

    A generational talent doesn't destroy the sport. Men's track survived Usain Bolt and his unusual height. How many tears are shed because Petra Vlhova has to compete against Mikaela Shiffrin? Sometimes it's a big step between the top few athletes and the rest. The sport survives.

  11. #61
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    That is confusing one great athlete who dominates for a while with a change that will affect who wins going forward. Till now that has always been for the good.
    Mrs. Dougw- "I can see how one of your relatives could have been killed by an angry mob."

    Quote Originally Posted by ill-advised strategy View Post
    dougW, you motherfucking dirty son of a bitch.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by DougW View Post
    That is confusing one great athlete who dominates for a while with a change that will affect who wins going forward. Till now that has always been for the good.
    Nah. There is no reason to believe there are more like her today or will be more like her in the future than there have been in the past. Maybe there have been others like her already and we just never noticed. Either way, you're confusing a biological condition with one that can be copied. She's not transgender.

  13. #63
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    She may be anomaly but wasn't there a race where 1st-2nd -3rd were all intersex? Anyway how she is dealt with will affect how trans athletes are able to compete in future.

    anyway I do agree with
    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    This is the "best" part of the whole circus right here. She's had the advantages she was born with for all this time and used them to train and her conditioning is not going to vanish just because her T levels get dropped--unless there are other side effects, which would just be perfect. Are they going to constantly monitor her T levels away from competition? Ridiculous.
    .
    But doesn't line of logic preclude the trans women from competing as women because even if the lower their T levels they still had 20 years with functioning balls.
    Mrs. Dougw- "I can see how one of your relatives could have been killed by an angry mob."

    Quote Originally Posted by ill-advised strategy View Post
    dougW, you motherfucking dirty son of a bitch.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    If she has or had a penis, does not have and never had a vagina or uterus, and has functional testes she should compete as a man. Otherwise as a woman. .....
    That is a reasonable line but would offend a lot of people as trans women could not compete as women.

    Don't you have to poke around to check if uterus? could not CS fall on this point? just wondering
    Mrs. Dougw- "I can see how one of your relatives could have been killed by an angry mob."

    Quote Originally Posted by ill-advised strategy View Post
    dougW, you motherfucking dirty son of a bitch.

  15. #65
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    DougW, you may want to read OG's posts a little more carefully. Your continued reference to "balls" makes it seem like "poking around" may have bigger implications for you.

  16. #66
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    Caster Semenya Decision

    OG ftw. Doug needs to read some updated college textbooks or at least read just OG more carefully

    If she was cute and white, this wouldn't even be a controversy. Full stop.
    Last edited by mcski; 05-11-2019 at 02:03 PM.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    This is the "best" part of the whole circus right here. She's had the advantages she was born with for all this time and used them to train and her conditioning is not going to vanish just because her T levels get dropped--unless there are other side effects, which would just be perfect. Are they going to constantly monitor her T levels away from competition? Ridiculous.

    A generational talent doesn't destroy the sport. Men's track survived Usain Bolt and his unusual height. How many tears are shed because Petra Vlhova has to compete against Mikaela Shiffrin? Sometimes it's a big step between the top few athletes and the rest. The sport survives.
    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    Nah. There is no reason to believe there are more like her today or will be more like her in the future than there have been in the past. Maybe there have been others like her already and we just never noticed. Either way, you're confusing a biological condition with one that can be copied. She's not transgender.
    good posts

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    How about people with Marfan's Syndrome and acromegaly--diseases, the latter of which is produced by excess growth hormone--that can produce increased height. Should they be banned from basketball and volleyball? Should biologic advantage due to disease be treated differently than biologic advantage due to "normal" inheritance? Isn't that discriminating against people with disabilities?
    Again, this is not an apples to apples comparison because most sports, including track, are only divided into men's and women's divisions. So if that division is going to be maintained what constitutes a woman versus a man must be defined.

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  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by The AD View Post
    Again, this is not an apples to apples comparison because most sports, including track, are only divided into men's and women's divisions. So if that division is going to be maintained what constitutes a woman versus a man must be defined.
    sure it's apples to apples. Semenya is being penalized for having an advantage over her competitors due to her congenital disorder. Should these other athletes be penalized for being born with congenital disorders that give them an advantage over their competitors? In all of these cases the sports in question are separated by gender and in all of these cases the athlete with the advantage is competing against people of the same gender--female in Semenya's case. The only way you can say it's apples and oranges is if you deny that Semenya is a woman. If Semenya were not an athlete no one would be questioning her gender. She would even be allowed to use the ladies' room in Alabama. Which brings up another way to differentiate between men and women--do they stand or squat to pee?

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcdickless View Post
    OG ftw. Doug needs to read some updated college textbooks or at least read just OG more carefully

    If she was cute and white, this wouldn't even be a controversy. Full stop.
    Well that was very American of you lets just go rude. Its a stupid statement to reference cute as that is the point is that she has high levels of testosterone all her life and that effected her development so the likelihood of being conventionally cute is pretty much non existent. And what does this have to do with race? At least OG puts in the effort to present information. I think he makes a good points to the contention that testosterone lowering is maybe not fair but the same information could be used to draw the line at XX is required as all of intersex is a continuum and so any line is arbitrary. So if not XX then is there no line and its just if you identify as female ( which many believe) then you are female. Some would judge OG's line of never having a penis as wrong. All lines will be problematic for some and unfair to others. Time will tell whether CS is just an anomaly or if in 8 years 2 of the top 3 finishers in these events will be intersex and the trend will be established going forward. Will just have to revisit this thread in 8 years.

    Question for OG. Your line for female is has a uterus . Is it possible that CS doesn't have one?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ill-advised strategy View Post
    dougW, you motherfucking dirty son of a bitch.

  22. #72
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    Caster Semenya Decision

    Dougie, you just don't get it still? Wtf - she's a woman. Get over it. Just cause she isn't a cute white chick shouldn't scare you so much. And yes, how she looks and her blackness has everything to do with it. If she was a hot whitey, no one would be complaining. At the end of the day, she's a woman and was born a woman. Get over it. OGs assessment is spot on.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby View Post
    Good point in here...

    If testosterone levels vary from one male to the next, then is it fair for high-testosterone males to compete against low-testosterone males? Are low-testosterone males actually males? At what point does a low-testosterone male become female?
    Quoting from the Slate interview again:
    A man in the low level of the typical male testosterone range still has testosterone several hundred percent higher than a woman at the top of the typical female range.

  24. #74
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    Great art. in the economist on this decision. Great information from many view points. Its not a simple issue as highlighted in Economist.
    Mrs. Dougw- "I can see how one of your relatives could have been killed by an angry mob."

    Quote Originally Posted by ill-advised strategy View Post
    dougW, you motherfucking dirty son of a bitch.

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