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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by iceman View Post
    I mean, it does seem like you have to draw the line somewhere if you think womens' sports has value. Where do you draw it? No idea myself.
    You just create a somewhat arbitrary but enforceable legal definition and that's that. The legalistic view of doping. The problem is top athletes are not "normal" and yet we try to apply normative definitions to them and create simple rules that aren't simple because what we think is simple isn't.

    You must have a uterus excludes women who've had hysterectomys; if we change the tense to "you must have had a uterus" it excludes those with some abnormalities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BCllerian_agenesis

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    The fact that you say "sport" instead of "sports" invalidates your argument.

    But seriously--in the specific case of Semenya we are not talking about strength but speed and endurance. While you may be stronger than elite female rugby players, the percentage of men who could outrace an elite female middle distance runner is very low, no matter how hard they trained. But that misses my point: I am not denying that she has an advantage. I am denying that the advantage is unfair.

    Semenya can't father children. How about if we make that the standard of maleness? Or consider that she was born with some serious disadvantages--the ability to bear or father children or have the same access to intimate relationships most of us have. Given that she has to bear her disadvantages shouldn't she be allowed to make use of her advantages?
    Power is the most important component of speed. The Wyoming menís highschool record is 1:48. Womenís world record is 1:53. I didnít look at every state but was unable to find any state with a highschool menís record that was slower than the womenís world record. With elite training Iíd guess there is at least a few men out of every 100 that could break the womenís world record.

    One really interesting quote from an article posted earlier is that the top three finishers at the world championships were all XY.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunfree View Post
    You just create a somewhat arbitrary but enforceable legal definition and that's that.
    Agreed and testosterone levels are easily tested, so that works.

    I really think if that's the definition, the classifications should be "low-T" and "open" rather than "women" and "men," though.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by neufox47 View Post
    Power is the most important component of speed. The Wyoming menís highschool record is 1:48. Womenís world record is 1:53. I didnít look at every state but was unable to find any state with a highschool menís record that was slower than the womenís world record. With elite training Iíd guess there is at least a few men out of every 100 that could break the womenís world record.

    One really interesting quote from an article posted earlier is that the top three finishers at the world championships were all XY.
    This is pretty accurate. If you want to regularly win high school boys' dual meets in a major metro area, you need to be sub-2:00 as a senior. If you want a crack at finals in the state meet, you need to be damn close to 1:50. And that's high school kids. Peak performance in those events comes for guys who are training hard through their early-mid 20s.

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  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by neufox47 View Post
    Power is the most important component of speed. The Wyoming men’s highschool record is 1:48. Women’s world record is 1:53. I didn’t look at every state but was unable to find any state with a highschool men’s record that was slower than the women’s world record. With elite training I’d guess there is at least a few men out of every 100 that could break the women’s world record.

    One really interesting quote from an article posted earlier is that the top three finishers at the world championships were all XY.
    That all 3 were XY is more telling of the importance than interesting.

    Yes it is a key takeaway that a middling amateur athlete with male hormones can often out-compete female athletes who are elite top tier.

    It is damaging to female athletics.
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  6. #31
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    Swimming times between men and women are probably a little closer than running, but elite men are still much faster than women. The 200 is analogous to running an 800. At Rio in 2016 the men's winner in the 200 free went 1:44 and the women's winner was a 1:53 high. The qualifying time for U.S. Olympic Trials for men was a 1:51.89 and over 100 men swam the event at Trials.

    So far, though, there hasn't been a controversy like this in swimming, but it's probably just a matter of time.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by The AD View Post
    Swimming times between men and women are probably a little closer than running, but elite men are still much faster than women. The 200 is analogous to running an 800. At Rio in 2016 the men's winner in the 200 free went 1:44 and the women's winner was a 1:53 high. The qualifying time for U.S. Olympic Trials for men was a 1:51.89 and over 100 men swam the event at Trials.

    So far, though, there hasn't been a controversy like this in swimming, but it's probably just a matter of time.
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  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summit View Post
    East Germany called... their swimmers "came to swim, not to sing."
    Well, that was sort of a different situation, but point taken.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summit View Post
    It is damaging to female athletics.
    But only in the 400, 800 and 1500, apparently.

    Should low-T female athletes in these events now be allowed to use exogenous T as long as they stay below the threshold?

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dantheman View Post
    But only in the 400, 800 and 1500, apparently.
    That's the part that's really wack to me and makes it seem clear that Semenya was directly targeted. Power would be even more important in sprints and field events but they aren't covered?

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by The AD View Post
    Swimming times between men and women are probably a little closer than running, but elite men are still much faster than women.
    Drag coefficient. I'd bet if Michael Phelps had a pair of balloons strapped to his chest he'd be slower.
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  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by iceman View Post
    That's the part that's really wack to me and makes it seem clear that Semenya was directly targeted. Power would be even more important in sprints and field events but they aren't covered?
    The rationale is that those are the events where there was statistical evidence showing women with high-T had an advantage. Although, strangely, the data didn't actually show this for the 1500, but that event was included anyway.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timberridge View Post
    Drag coefficient. I'd bet if Michael Phelps had a pair of balloons strapped to his chest he'd be slower.
    If that was the case wouldn't you expect the difference in swimming times to be greater between men and women than for running, not less?

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by neufox47 View Post
    One really interesting quote from an article posted earlier is that the top three finishers at the world championships were all XY.
    I think you/they mean the 2016 Olympics (with Semenya, Niyonsaba, and Wambui on the podium). The most recent outdoor WCs were in 2017, Ajee Wilson took the bronze (behind Semenya and Niyonsaba). Wambui had a bad race and finished 4th.

    The XY issue aside, I'd like to see Semenya take down the 800m world record and wipe out the current doped up Soviet era record. She doesn't seem that interested in running for time though, and no one else is strong enough to really push her in a race. And her times are likely to go up with the T limit enforcement being reinstated. (She's only broken 1:56 in 2009 before the limit and 2016-now after it was suspended in 2015.)

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timberridge View Post
    Drag coefficient. I'd bet if Michael Phelps had a pair of balloons strapped to his chest he'd be slower.
    You don't see top level female swimmers rocking double D's, much to my chagrin after I signed up for swim team as a kid.
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  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdironRider View Post
    You don't see top level female swimmers rocking double D's, much to my chagrin after I signed up for swim team as a kid.
    I was always told that women's naturally higher body fat percentages make them more buoyant, an obvious advantage. And that that's why women's swim times are somewhat closer to men's than they are for some other sports and why you don't often see as many super lean, thin female swimmers as you do on the mens side. At their strength levels a little extra body fat can be an advantage over the next girl.
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  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dantheman View Post
    But only in the 400, 800 and 1500, apparently.

    Should low-T female athletes in these events now be allowed to use exogenous T as long as they stay below the threshold?
    Yea and that part is whack. I think Iíve said this before but if I were king, Iíd make two divisions one for women and there would be a strict definition - and one open division. Anyone can compete in the open division. You were male but identify as female, open division. You were female but identify as male and take hormones, open division. You have XY chromosomes, open division.

  18. #43
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    Fat and old? Open division. I like it.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by The AD View Post
    Agreed and testosterone levels are easily tested, so that works.

    I really think if that's the definition, the classifications should be "low-T" and "open" rather than "women" and "men," though.
    following current thoughts I think it'd be "lower-T" and "higher-T". Testosterone is also a doping agent for men & Landis lost his tour title because of alleged testosterone doping.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joey Joe Joe Junior Shabadoo View Post
    I was always told that women's naturally higher body fat percentages make them more buoyant, an obvious advantage. And that that's why women's swim times are somewhat closer to men's than they are for some other sports and why you don't often see as many super lean, thin female swimmers as you do on the mens side. At their strength levels a little extra body fat can be an advantage over the next girl.
    The reason swimmers tend to be less thin than other athletes is that weighing less is a far smaller advantage in water than it is when you're running. In NCAA level distance running events body fat% is a better predictor of performance than training miles logged.

    Weighing less still helps in the pool, but under something like 10% body fat for men (don't recall the exact #'s) the advantage of losing weight becomes very, very small and maintaining low body fat % when you are training long hours, and therefore very hungry, fucking sucks.

    As far as the Semenya decision, she is clearly being targeted. The problem with gender testing in general is that corrupt organizations like the IOC will be in charge. It was only a few years back some wrinkled old Frenchman on the IOC was saying women's ski jumping shouldn't be in the Olympics because it could damage their ovaries.

    The IOC will fuck up gender testing. They will invent standards that benefit their interests and implement them perniciously. No solution is far better than letting these clowns make decisions about who is a woman.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joey Joe Joe Junior Shabadoo View Post
    I was always told that women's naturally higher body fat percentages make them more buoyant, an obvious advantage. And that that's why women's swim times are somewhat closer to men's than they are for some other sports and why you don't often see as many super lean, thin female swimmers as you do on the mens side. At their strength levels a little extra body fat can be an advantage over the next girl.
    I don't think this is true at all. The women are every bit as fit as the men. Actually I'd bet if you compared female swimmers to average women their body fat percentage would be comparatively less than if you compared male swimmers to average men.

  22. #47
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    So getting back on topic, if the field is dominated by xy women, why is that fact being glossed over? Also, if you want womenís sports do you really want men who feel like women competing. Iím sorry about your feelings, but dudes who last year were dudes and now shift gender to women like the Connecticut track athletes is not fair to xx women at all.
    Iíll call her katelyn out of respect for a persons choices but anyone defending this think the former Bruce Jenner considered the greatest pure athlete of all time should have had the ability to compete against xx women? Outside of archery, equestrian and a few other select sports, why should women athletes bother.


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  23. #48
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    There's a big difference between transgender and intersex. Someone like Semenya is recognizably female at birth and raised that way. Of course we could allow transgender women to compete with biologic women--excluding them would be an arbitrary decision, as is the decision to separate men and women in competition. Whatever distinction is made is arbitrary and will seem unfair to some people; hopefully the distinction that is made will be the one that makes the most sense to the most people. Allowing women who are biologically, unambiguously male to compete against women does not make sense to many people; certainly allowing Semenya to compete as a woman makes sense to many more.

    Re times of elite HS athletes vs times of elite adult women: the point is not that being male does not give an advantage--that it does is a given, the point is that having the biological gifts of an elite athlete is more important than male vs female; that is an elite female athlete will out compete the average man in almost every sport. Elite athletes have many biological advantages; higher T is only one of them.

    Also, Semenya is not a man, she has male and female characteristics. Asking her to compete as a man would be far more unfair than allowing her to compete as a woman. Asking her to take drugs to lower T to compete as a woman is absurd, especially in this era of concern re doping.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    There's a big difference between transgender and intersex. Someone like Semenya is recognizably female at birth and raised that way. Of course we could allow transgender women to compete with biologic women--excluding them would be an arbitrary decision, as is the decision to separate men and women in competition. Whatever distinction is made is arbitrary and will seem unfair to some people; hopefully the distinction that is made will be the one that makes the most sense to the most people. Allowing women who are biologically, unambiguously male to compete against women does not make sense to many people; certainly allowing Semenya to compete as a woman makes sense to many more.

    Re times of elite HS athletes vs times of elite adult women: the point is not that being male does not give an advantage--that it does is a given, the point is that having the biological gifts of an elite athlete is more important than male vs female; that is an elite female athlete will out compete the average man in almost every sport. Elite athletes have many biological advantages; higher T is only one of them.

    Also, Semenya is not a man, she has male and female characteristics. Asking her to compete as a man would be far more unfair than allowing her to compete as a woman. Asking her to take drugs to lower T to compete as a woman is absurd, especially in this era of concern re doping.
    To be clear I am not an elite athlete by any stretch of the imagination. No college coaches ever called. My high school senior / freshman in college times were about the same as women in the Olympic finals. My training regimen included running a lot, plyometrics, weight lifting, gorging on fast food pizza, and fat, milky bong hits. In speed and power-oriented track and field events, being male trumps whatever else you think makes an elite athlete. It's not a conversation.

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  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    There's a big difference between transgender and intersex. Someone like Semenya is recognizably female at birth and raised that way. Of course we could allow transgender women to compete with biologic women--excluding them would be an arbitrary decision, as is the decision to separate men and women in competition. Whatever distinction is made is arbitrary and will seem unfair to some people; hopefully the distinction that is made will be the one that makes the most sense to the most people. Allowing women who are biologically, unambiguously male to compete against women does not make sense to many people; certainly allowing Semenya to compete as a woman makes sense to many more.

    Re times of elite HS athletes vs times of elite adult women: the point is not that being male does not give an advantage--that it does is a given, the point is that having the biological gifts of an elite athlete is more important than male vs female; that is an elite female athlete will out compete the average man in almost every sport. Elite athletes have many biological advantages; higher T is only one of them.

    Also, Semenya is not a man, she has male and female characteristics. Asking her to compete as a man would be far more unfair than allowing her to compete as a woman. Asking her to take drugs to lower T to compete as a woman is absurd, especially in this era of concern re doping.
    To be clear I am not an elite athlete by any stretch of the imagination. No college coaches ever called. My high school senior / freshman in college times were about the same as women in the Olympic finals. That made me about the 4th-fastest guy out of about 200 dudes in my high school graduating class. My training regimen included running a lot, plyometrics, weight lifting, gorging on fast food pizza, and fat, milky bong hits. I am the definition of a very modestly talented dude who trained pretty hard, but not crazy hard. I'm far from an elite athlete.

    In speed and power-oriented track and field events, being male trumps whatever else you think makes an elite athlete. It's not a conversation. That's just the landscape and it is how it is.

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