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Thread: Caster Semenya Decision
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05-09-2019, 10:16 AM #26
You just create a somewhat arbitrary but enforceable legal definition and that's that. The legalistic view of doping. The problem is top athletes are not "normal" and yet we try to apply normative definitions to them and create simple rules that aren't simple because what we think is simple isn't.
You must have a uterus excludes women who've had hysterectomys; if we change the tense to "you must have had a uterus" it excludes those with some abnormalities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BCllerian_agenesis
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05-09-2019, 12:38 PM #27
Power is the most important component of speed. The Wyoming men’s highschool record is 1:48. Women’s world record is 1:53. I didn’t look at every state but was unable to find any state with a highschool men’s record that was slower than the women’s world record. With elite training I’d guess there is at least a few men out of every 100 that could break the women’s world record.
One really interesting quote from an article posted earlier is that the top three finishers at the world championships were all XY.
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05-09-2019, 01:03 PM #28
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05-09-2019, 01:03 PM #29
This is pretty accurate. If you want to regularly win high school boys' dual meets in a major metro area, you need to be sub-2:00 as a senior. If you want a crack at finals in the state meet, you need to be damn close to 1:50. And that's high school kids. Peak performance in those events comes for guys who are training hard through their early-mid 20s.
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05-09-2019, 01:06 PM #30Originally Posted by blurred
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05-09-2019, 01:12 PM #31
Swimming times between men and women are probably a little closer than running, but elite men are still much faster than women. The 200 is analogous to running an 800. At Rio in 2016 the men's winner in the 200 free went 1:44 and the women's winner was a 1:53 high. The qualifying time for U.S. Olympic Trials for men was a 1:51.89 and over 100 men swam the event at Trials.
So far, though, there hasn't been a controversy like this in swimming, but it's probably just a matter of time.
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05-09-2019, 01:21 PM #32
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05-09-2019, 01:24 PM #33
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05-09-2019, 01:24 PM #34
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05-09-2019, 01:53 PM #35Funky But Chic
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05-09-2019, 01:56 PM #36
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05-09-2019, 01:57 PM #37
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05-09-2019, 01:59 PM #38
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05-09-2019, 02:07 PM #39Registered User
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I think you/they mean the 2016 Olympics (with Semenya, Niyonsaba, and Wambui on the podium). The most recent outdoor WCs were in 2017, Ajee Wilson took the bronze (behind Semenya and Niyonsaba). Wambui had a bad race and finished 4th.
The XY issue aside, I'd like to see Semenya take down the 800m world record and wipe out the current doped up Soviet era record. She doesn't seem that interested in running for time though, and no one else is strong enough to really push her in a race. And her times are likely to go up with the T limit enforcement being reinstated. (She's only broken 1:56 in 2009 before the limit and 2016-now after it was suspended in 2015.)
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05-09-2019, 02:21 PM #40
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05-09-2019, 03:37 PM #41
I was always told that women's naturally higher body fat percentages make them more buoyant, an obvious advantage. And that that's why women's swim times are somewhat closer to men's than they are for some other sports and why you don't often see as many super lean, thin female swimmers as you do on the mens side. At their strength levels a little extra body fat can be an advantage over the next girl.
"They don't think it be like it is, but it do."
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05-09-2019, 04:01 PM #42
Yea and that part is whack. I think I’ve said this before but if I were king, I’d make two divisions one for women and there would be a strict definition - and one open division. Anyone can compete in the open division. You were male but identify as female, open division. You were female but identify as male and take hormones, open division. You have XY chromosomes, open division.
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05-09-2019, 04:26 PM #43Funky But Chic
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Fat and old? Open division. I like it.
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05-09-2019, 04:46 PM #44
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05-09-2019, 04:47 PM #45
The reason swimmers tend to be less thin than other athletes is that weighing less is a far smaller advantage in water than it is when you're running. In NCAA level distance running events body fat% is a better predictor of performance than training miles logged.
Weighing less still helps in the pool, but under something like 10% body fat for men (don't recall the exact #'s) the advantage of losing weight becomes very, very small and maintaining low body fat % when you are training long hours, and therefore very hungry, fucking sucks.
As far as the Semenya decision, she is clearly being targeted. The problem with gender testing in general is that corrupt organizations like the IOC will be in charge. It was only a few years back some wrinkled old Frenchman on the IOC was saying women's ski jumping shouldn't be in the Olympics because it could damage their ovaries.
The IOC will fuck up gender testing. They will invent standards that benefit their interests and implement them perniciously. No solution is far better than letting these clowns make decisions about who is a woman.
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05-09-2019, 10:04 PM #46
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05-10-2019, 01:14 PM #47
So getting back on topic, if the field is dominated by xy women, why is that fact being glossed over? Also, if you want women’s sports do you really want men who feel like women competing. I’m sorry about your feelings, but dudes who last year were dudes and now shift gender to women like the Connecticut track athletes is not fair to xx women at all.
I’ll call her katelyn out of respect for a persons choices but anyone defending this think the former Bruce Jenner considered the greatest pure athlete of all time should have had the ability to compete against xx women? Outside of archery, equestrian and a few other select sports, why should women athletes bother.
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05-10-2019, 04:21 PM #48
There's a big difference between transgender and intersex. Someone like Semenya is recognizably female at birth and raised that way. Of course we could allow transgender women to compete with biologic women--excluding them would be an arbitrary decision, as is the decision to separate men and women in competition. Whatever distinction is made is arbitrary and will seem unfair to some people; hopefully the distinction that is made will be the one that makes the most sense to the most people. Allowing women who are biologically, unambiguously male to compete against women does not make sense to many people; certainly allowing Semenya to compete as a woman makes sense to many more.
Re times of elite HS athletes vs times of elite adult women: the point is not that being male does not give an advantage--that it does is a given, the point is that having the biological gifts of an elite athlete is more important than male vs female; that is an elite female athlete will out compete the average man in almost every sport. Elite athletes have many biological advantages; higher T is only one of them.
Also, Semenya is not a man, she has male and female characteristics. Asking her to compete as a man would be far more unfair than allowing her to compete as a woman. Asking her to take drugs to lower T to compete as a woman is absurd, especially in this era of concern re doping.
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05-10-2019, 05:26 PM #49
To be clear I am not an elite athlete by any stretch of the imagination. No college coaches ever called. My high school senior / freshman in college times were about the same as women in the Olympic finals. My training regimen included running a lot, plyometrics, weight lifting, gorging on fast food pizza, and fat, milky bong hits. In speed and power-oriented track and field events, being male trumps whatever else you think makes an elite athlete. It's not a conversation.
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05-10-2019, 05:44 PM #50
To be clear I am not an elite athlete by any stretch of the imagination. No college coaches ever called. My high school senior / freshman in college times were about the same as women in the Olympic finals. That made me about the 4th-fastest guy out of about 200 dudes in my high school graduating class. My training regimen included running a lot, plyometrics, weight lifting, gorging on fast food pizza, and fat, milky bong hits. I am the definition of a very modestly talented dude who trained pretty hard, but not crazy hard. I'm far from an elite athlete.
In speed and power-oriented track and field events, being male trumps whatever else you think makes an elite athlete. It's not a conversation. That's just the landscape and it is how it is.
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