Gravel/Bikepack nerds enter...

[Terrapin Ben]

Very cool insights from Noel regarding the steel option.

https://theradavist.com/2020/03/shif...-knolly-cache/

"We designed both the steel and titanium Caches to ride very similarly. There is a lot of "mystique" (marketing? in the industry about materials and how they work / feel. They are for sure not all the same (with carbon being the most variable), but steel and titanium are "the most similar" of the four major frame materials.

When you get into the air hardened, heat treated steels (which we use for the Cache steel) you start to have some of the benefits but also challenges that you get with materials like titanium. You are able to make incredibly strong tubes that are relatively light weight, but they become more brittle and this limits their formability. You have the same challenges with titanium between 3-2.5 and 6-4 with the harder grade 6-4 being able to tolerate only minimal manipulation.

The beauty of these two materials - and why we chose them - is because we can design two frames at significantly different price points with very similar ride qualities.

Of course everyone wants to believe that titanium rides "better" because it costs about 2.5 times the steel frame, but the steel frame can come very, very close in terms of performance. The main difference is weight, with the steel frame weighing a pound or so more than the titanium frame (density of steel + weight of the paint). We have also removed most of the internal cable routing on the steel frame because this adds considerable cost to the bike. You can still run a stealth dropper post on the steel frame and / or use this port for Di2 for those who like this setup.

We worked super hard to ensure that tube manipulation on both materials was as close as possible. Steel (any version) is much stiffer than any grade of titanium, so you can get away with smaller diameter tubes on the steel frame and generate a similar flex profile to the titanium frame. it's not identical, but it's very very close. You do run into some differences where the tubes have to be the same size: i.e. seat tube, head tube and BB shell: those tube diameters are defined by other components so there's no getting around the diameter required. But for main frame tubes and stays, you can reduce the diameter of the steel tubes and get an overall compliance that is very close to the titanium frame."

[jamal]

I wonder how much any of that matters with 2" tires. Also the same carbon fork.

[Terrapin Ben]

I wonder how much any of that matters with 2" tires. Also the same carbon fork.

I think the idea is that the ride quality is similar between the two frames with the steel just weighing more and being less expensive.

[Whiteroom_Guardian]

I wonder how much any of that matters with 2" tires. Also the same carbon fork.

Probably the way I need to be looking at this. Will that pound matter if i have it all laden down with frame bags and bar bags full of Quinoa energy goo balls and cassette tapes?

[jamal]

I guess I should have made that more general. Like, you take two frames made with different materials, but have the same geo, fork, etc, how much are you going to notice when it's on 40mm or bigger tires?

I will say I have noticed it with road tires on my cross bike though. There is like, no compliance in the fork or frame and it rides like garbage on 28s (it's carbon btw). No complaints about ride on bigger tires though. It's more the short wheelbase, steep hta, and high bb I notice.

[chaka]

that's a nice materials comparison summary. The other factor in favor for Ti is some added corrosion resistance. I have both a Ti bike (mtb) and a steel bike (cx) and I've had some scary moments with the steel bike when I forgot to pull the bottom bracket after a wet ride to find a nice pool of rusty water sitting in there. Sure you can stay on top of it and have little to no issues (frame saver, regular airing out of the BB cavity) but not having to worry about it at all is pretty nice. Especially here in the not so dry PNW. I adore the ride qualities of both. I agree that the larger the tire the less likely you will notice the ride quality nuances. Is less weight and added corrosion resistance worth the Ti premium? I guess it depends on your budget and how you want to use the bike and your predisposition to forgetfulness when it comes to proactive maintenance BTW, that knolly geo looks pretty stretched out comparing wheelbase and effective top tube with some other bikepacking/gravel friendly designs (like Rodeo Labs)? Really nice looking frames! Do they outsource their Ti to Lynskey like everyone else?

[Whiteroom_Guardian]

that's a nice materials comparison summary. The other factor in favor for Ti is some added corrosion resistance. I have both a Ti bike (mtb) and a steel bike (cx) and I've had some scary moments with the steel bike when I forgot to pull the bottom bracket after a wet ride to find a nice pool of rusty water sitting in there. Sure you can stay on top of it and have little to no issues (frame saver, regular airing out of the BB cavity) but not having to worry about it at all is pretty nice. Especially here in the not so dry PNW. I adore the ride qualities of both. I agree that the larger the tire the less likely you will notice the ride quality nuances. Is less weight and added corrosion resistance worth the Ti premium? I guess it depends on your budget and how you want to use the bike and your predisposition to forgetfulness when it comes to proactive maintenance BTW, that knolly geo looks pretty stretched out comparing wheelbase and effective top tube with some other bikepacking/gravel friendly designs (like Rodeo Labs)? Really nice looking frames! Do they outsource their Ti to Lynskey like everyone else?

I know nothing about geometry and how that really relates to sketchiness. My only frame of reference for anything that isn't a mountain bike is my current road ride. It's an 8 year old design and was cheap when it was new. I paid like $700 for it in 2014. I feel EVERY single rock and bump, but I do like that it seems pretty efficient and responsive to pedal power.

https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/defy-composite-3-2012

[chaka]

I know nothing about geometry and how that really relates to sketchiness.
https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/defy-composite-3-2012

IMO the longer wheelbase (along with other geo choices like a slacker HT) typically takes you in the other direction, to less sketchy, more stable on descents... and can trade some agility, quickness and possibly climbing efficiency. there are a lot of variables at play though. I'm not knocking the knolly at all, I just noticed the longish wheelbase. maybe that is more the norm, I'm not familiar with enough other brands to tell. If I were bikepacking having more stability on long washed out gravel descents while loaded would be a really good thing (compared the twitchy AF handling of my cx race whip, for comparison).

[Terrapin Ben]

I guess I should have made that more general. Like, you take two frames made with different materials, but have the same geo, fork, etc, how much are you going to notice when it's on 40mm or bigger tires?

I will say I have noticed it with road tires on my cross bike though. There is like, no compliance in the fork or frame and it rides like garbage on 28s (it's carbon btw). No complaints about ride on bigger tires though. It's more the short wheelbase, steep hta, and high bb I notice.

Fair question and good point! I feel like what everyone always raves about is how lively and springy steel frames feel in corners and stuff. And I always thought folks got so stoked on Ti just because it was blingy, light, and had similar ride qualities/compliance to nice steel frames.

Don't know if any of that would be watered down by bigger tires and washboard roads.

As with most anything bike related, the whole is almost always greater than sum of its individual parts. Frame material is obviously only one part of the equation.

[simple]

I don't buy shit without riding it first. Geometry tables are good for reference. Angles and lengths are +/- with so many factors. I'm sure I'm one of the few engineers who say this but numbers lie. I can change how a bike rides just with tire choice and especially with the thickness of the tubing (carbon or metal)

[chaka]

I don't buy shit without riding it first. Geometry tables are good for reference. Angles and lengths are +/- with so many factors. I'm sure I'm one of the few engineers who say this but numbers lie. I can change how a bike rides just with tire choice and especially with the thickness of the tubing (carbon or metal)

word. Tire choice huge as well as pressure.

[Whiteroom_Guardian]

The only reason I would take a chance on this is the fact that I have had 3 different Knolly bikes and they all blew me away just about instantly.

Still kinda can't believe I sold the Knolly DH bike, but it just never got any use because my "trail" bike from them is such a beast.

[CantDog]

I just ordered up a steel cache. Super excited and I’m sure it will be a fun rig. Will arrive by the end of the week.

[Whiteroom_Guardian]

I just ordered up a steel cache. Super excited and I’m sure it will be a fun rig. Will arrive by the end of the week.

Which build? When I talked to Ken he made it seem like I was gonna wait a while. Did you pay full price if you don't mind me asking or are you also GSR?

[springsproject]

Coming from a mtb background I'm really happy I went with the drop bar 29er instead of an off-road road bike. Has anyone tried any of the new super wide drop bars yet? I want to try some but not sure which, they're all a bit spendy.

[chaka]

Coming from a mtb background I'm really happy I went with the drop bar 29er instead of an off-road road bike. Has anyone tried any of the new super wide drop bars yet? I want to try some but not sure which, they're all a bit spendy.

Its not super wide but I'm a fan of the Salsa Cowchipper. Fairly reasonable price in Al. Has a nice comfortable flare (for me).

[Whiteroom_Guardian]

Coming from a mtb background I'm really happy I went with the drop bar 29er instead of an off-road road bike. Has anyone tried any of the new super wide drop bars yet? I want to try some but not sure which, they're all a bit spendy.

The look of that bike is cool. In reality I need to keep my costs down, but want something upgradable. Seems there are lots of frames out there for cheap, but are limited with no TA etc because of their age. I am realizing now it would be kind fun to have a bike that is basically a 29" mountain bike that I could ride some singletrack with and then swap out tires and but bags on and go for a long ride.

I'm leaving the Knolly Cache door open for now, but I really really shouldn't spend that chunk of money right now. I love working on bikes, so something ridable that I could slowly upgrade parts on would be sweet.

[bagtagley]

Sounds like you'd mostly be riding dirt roads, for which I prefer something purpose built for that, aka gravel bike. If I was riding the stuff springs is on his bike, which is sweet, I'm sure I'd feel differently. Also, the idea of riding singletrack on a drop bar bike sounds cool. In practice, I've never been a fan. Maybe bigger tires would change that, but if I'm riding trails, I'll just take my mtb.

Find something cheap and see if you even dig it. Don't drop a ton of money on a flashy drop bar bike only to find out you don't like it, or are only going to ride it a few months out of the year.

I'll second the Cowchippers. Good flare, but not too much, and nice and wide.

[ShoNuff]

I’m running the 48cm Coast bars from PNW and like them. Not much flare, but wide at the hoods and the drop is very shallow/short. I believe they come in 52 as well. Don’t own, but have ridden ENVE’s gravel bar and they are very comfortable and offer out standing control. Extremely expensive however.

Die hard MTB guy here, that has become obsessed with the gravel bike. Did not see it coming. But for exploring NW Washington by Road, gravel, single track or whatever, it can’t be beat. Smoke a bowl and follow your nose. Bushwhacking with an 18 pound gravel rig is far more palatable than a 30 pound trail bike. Drop bars, 40 to 50c tires, fenders and a wide gear range make for the ideal PNW shoulder season/rain bike. YMMV.

[plugboots]

I’m running the 48cm Coast bars from PNW and like them. Not much flare, but wide at the hoods and the drop is very shallow/short. I believe they come in 52 as well. Don’t own, but have ridden ENVE’s gravel bar and they are very comfortable and offer out standing control. Extremely expensive however.

Die hard MTB guy here, that has become obsessed with the gravel bike. Did not see it coming. But for exploring NW Washington by Road, gravel, single track or whatever, it can’t be beat. Smoke a bowl and follow your nose. Bushwhacking with an 18 pound gravel rig is far more palatable than a 30 pound trail bike. Drop bars, 40 to 50c tires, fenders and a wide gear range make for the ideal PNW shoulder season/rain bike. YMMV.

I really thought riding gravel roads was stupid, but I get it now. The reason is that the gravel roads around here in E. Washington are mostly 10 miles of climbing and then 10 miles of descending over washboarded dusty loose gravel.

I worked a booth at Sea Otter, and I sold a few frames to people just like you. They mostly lived in N. Cal., but wanted one bike to ride it all from their door. Live on pavement, road ends in a fire road, add a loop of singletrack, etc.
BTW, lots of good info on frame materials in the posts here, but Ti really is about as perfect a gravel bike material as you will get. Light, doesn’t chip, ding, or ever break, gives a little.

[Terrapin Ben]

How about Jones H-bars as an alternative to drop bars for gravel riding? I was riding down some pretty rough washboard last night and almost got bounced off the hoods a few times... That experience alone really made me appreciate mtb brake levers.

[simple]

Ride in the drops then. Bonus is your brakes work better in that position as well.

[Peruvian]

How about Jones H-bars as an alternative to drop bars for gravel riding? I was riding down some pretty rough washboard last night and almost got bounced off the hoods a few times... That experience alone really made me appreciate mtb brake levers.

I love the high hoods on my Sram Hydro Rivals for the security they provide when riding rough roads.

[plugboots]

Part of the key to gravel riding with drop bars is the set up of the bike. You pretty much need to be able to ride the drops on descents comfortably.

[wendigo]

We have abused two of these. https://www.konaworld.com/2019/sutra_ltd.cfm
reasonable price, nice ride, all the things i wanted for bikepacking (external fully covered cables, thru-axles, 1x drivetrain).
they are tough - the airlines have tried their best at destroying them - flown to ireland, iceland, arizona, utah with them basically in duffle bags - just some skuffs - but its steel so who cares?
handle a weeks worth of food (or 3 days of water) fine, also nice to ride unloaded, almost the same geo as that knolly and currently available cheap