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  1. #1
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    Feb 2019
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    Binding Freedom Insert mounting screw up

    So on my first ever paper template mount I decided to mount on Inserts. I mounted look pivot 18's.
    After the epoxy cured and I began screwing on the bindings, on one of the heel pieces I can only get 2 out of the 4 screws in, the other holes arn't even a mm off, but the holes on the bindings leave no room for error and I can't screw them in, so I have two screws in diagonally. On the other ski i managed to get 3 of the 4 in but again its just slightly off.
    The skis had a previous mount and there's really no room to mount again.

    Will it hold?
    What can i do?
    Anyone else made this big of a screwup with BF inserts?

  2. #2
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    Jan 2014
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    Did you mount with regular screws and then go back and expand holes to mount the inserts? Or did you go inserts straight away?

    There is a reason why most insert instructions recommend the former.

    Galibier will be by shortly for the rest of your questions.....

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
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    If you take the binding off, then put the machine screws partway in the inserts and hit them (all 4) with a blow torch, it will heat up the insert and loosen up the epoxy. It might give you just enough leeway to fudge it in. Always mount the binding to the ski while the epoxy is still wet, so the inserts can kind of move to where they need to be. There is very little room for error with inserts, but I just had good luck with the blowtorch method last week. It was still a tight squeeze but it works.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by doebedoe View Post
    Did you mount with regular screws and then go back and expand holes to mount the inserts? Or did you go inserts straight away?

    There is a reason why most insert instructions recommend the former.

    Galibier will be by shortly for the rest of your questions.....
    Yea I did not do that. Inserts straight away.

  5. #5
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    If they're off by less than a millimeter, just file the holes in the binding a little bit to allow the screws to be where they need to be. The screw head isn't going to rip through the metal binding plate.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
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    You can take out the inserts, enlarge very carefully the holes paying close attention to both direction and distance (I cannot imagine doing that without standing drill machine) and then you can fit larger diameter QK-Rescue inserts:

    https://quiverkiller.com/products/qk-rescue-inserts-4-pack



  7. #7
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    Aug 2016
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    Remove the insert (hold a soldering iron to it until the epoxy loosens). Clean out epoxy from the hole, put in insert, see if the binding fits without epoxy in it. You should be able to shift the insert a bit to get it aligned. Once you've figured out the alignment, re-install the insert with epoxy (mount the binding while the epoxy is still curing). You can also plug all of the old holes with wooden dowels and epoxy and start over.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by TeleBeaver View Post
    If you take the binding off, then put the machine screws partway in the inserts and hit them (all 4) with a blow torch, it will heat up the insert and loosen up the epoxy. It might give you just enough leeway to fudge it in. Always mount the binding to the ski while the epoxy is still wet, so the inserts can kind of move to where they need to be. There is very little room for error with inserts, but I just had good luck with the blowtorch method last week. It was still a tight squeeze but it works.
    This^^ use heat to see if you can sneak the inserts over enough

    heat is good to loosen epoxy but i find a propane torch a bit random to concentrate the heat on binding screws so I use a soldering iron

    I know its just crazy talk but instead of a flacid paper template I use the actual binding for the template
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by doebedoe View Post
    Did you mount with regular screws and then go back and expand holes to mount the inserts? Or did you go inserts straight away?

    There is a reason why most insert instructions recommend the former.

    Galibier will be by shortly for the rest of your questions.....
    I've never messed up that badly, so others' experience is likely more relevant. Trust me - I've screwed up lots of ways, but have been able to gracefully recover.

    Of course, you chose the most difficult binding for your first mount. The rear holes on a Pivot are a real challenge to line up, even if you've drilled and tapped accurately. When installing a Pivot heel, I screw down the front two screws to the point where they're still a bit loose. I then use some sort of clamp to hold down the brake pad and screw in the two long, rear screws, finally torquing everything up.

    • If you drilled accurately but tapped on an angle, remove the inserts and re-tap the holes and re-install. Use a tap guide to stay perpendicular to the top sheet.
    • If you mis-drilled, remove the inserts, plug, re-drill, and re-install.

    If you don't have an insertion/removal tool, grind a straight-bladed screwdriver tip so the blade is a snug fit in the BF slot. You don't want to chew up the slot (you get one chance to back them out to at least the point where you can use a Vice Grip). Heat the insert with a soldering iron and use the tool to back out the inserts.

    Prevention in the future.

    XXX-er's approach to use the binding as a drilling template is a good one, but tends to work best with "standard" mounts. With the large (5/16") insert holes, it's very difficult to visually confirm the accuracy of your drilled holes. For this reason, I put faith in a template and accurate centerpunching.

    There's ample opportunity for error in this (centepunching) step, and the procedure I've adopted is to use a separate template for each ski and to put a pin hole in the exact center of each hole (use a straight pin). If you re-use the template, there's opportunity for the centerpunch to wander. Ask me how I know.

    I'll locate the pinhole in the exact center of each binding hole in the template. I do this at a desk and use good lighting and a magnifying glass (@auvgeek can testify to this). It sounds like overkill, but small errors stack up, and having a pinhole as a guide for your centerpunch will minimize this error creep. The pinhole acts as a guide for the centerpunch which is why you don't want to re-use the template for the second ski (the hole gets too wide after centerpunching).

    Lastly, I initially thought that drilling a perpendicular hole was the end game and that the hole would guide the tap. I learned that while drilling reasonably orthogonally to the top sheet is a good thing, that the tapping operation can easily skew this. Use a tap guide or make your own. In laziness, I used to use two squares oriented at 90 degrees as a visual guide for my tap. Did I mention to use a tap guide?

    Many will screw the binding in loosely while the epoxy is still setting to help align the inserts. I've never tried this. It sounds like a good idea as long as you're using a super slow set epoxy (G Flex 650), but I've always been concerned that I'd leave a bit of epoxy in the inside threads and that I'd be stuck with having to heat things up to loosen the screw and finish the mount (weakens the epoxy, BTW). BF sells small foam plugs to help keep the epoxy out. I wipe with a paper towel as the squeeze out occurs, and likely I'm good at this, but still a bit creeped out to follow this step. YMMV.

    Quote Originally Posted by TimersMix View Post
    Yea I did not do that. Inserts straight away.
    Early on, I would drill a conventional screw mount, do the "mount", and then remove the binding and open up the holes for the inserts. I found that no matter how well the "conventional" holes were counterbored, the larger drill bit would wander. I adopted the direct mount for inserts technique upon discovering this.

    ... Thom
    Last edited by galibier_numero_un; 04-18-2019 at 11:00 AM.
    Galibier Design
    crafting technology in service of music

  10. #10
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    Wasn't aware of those rescue inserts, those are awesome.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimersMix View Post
    So on my first ever paper template mount I decided to mount on Inserts. I mounted look pivot 18's.
    After the epoxy cured and I began screwing on the bindings, on one of the heel pieces I can only get 2 out of the 4 screws in, the other holes arn't even a mm off, but the holes on the bindings leave no room for error and I can't screw them in, so I have two screws in diagonally. On the other ski i managed to get 3 of the 4 in but again its just slightly off.
    The skis had a previous mount and there's really no room to mount again.

    Will it hold?
    What can i do?
    Anyone else made this big of a screwup with BF inserts?
    I had a similar problem and I think the other posts are giving the right solutions. Pivot 18 mount for me on a pair of Praxis Q’s. I used a drill press with only a center punch and no pilot hole. One of my heels wasn’t perfectly aligned. I will be using Thom’s two templates moving forward. While my epoxy was wet I “soft” mounted my bindings. One hole was a bit off. I used my center punch/awl to apply leverage on the insert and managed to get the bolts in after. I would try heating the insert, loosely install the bolts and you cannot get on try using your punch to give it a nudge.


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1000-oaks View Post
    Wasn't aware of those rescue inserts, those are awesome.
    Me neither ... good to know.

    Follow-on to above comments. I'll bet you drilled more accurately than you thought, and that using a clamp like this Irwin Quick Grip to hold down the brake pad will help you see how close you really are. Screwing in those heels is more challenging than normal mounts.

    https://www.amazon.com/Irwin-Quick-5...-1-spons&psc=1

    ... Thom


    Galibier Design
    crafting technology in service of music

  13. #13
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    Oct 2014
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1000-oaks View Post
    Wasn't aware of those rescue inserts, those are awesome.
    ive used them. see left insert.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Buy used - mount your own skis - build a quiver

  14. #14
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    more crazy talk eh ?

    IME drilling the holes is easy, its the figuring out how far to mount everything from ski center is the harder part but its really just good layout

    So but instead of using said flacid piece of paper to drill all the holes before figuring out how many I actualy fucked up I will drill and mount the binding toe or heel by ONE screw, then I draw the rest of the round binding holes on masking tape which lets me see the exact center of the binding hole, I centerpunch with a drywall screw, I drill the holes using the smallest bit ( 1/16th ?) in the kit to drill , from there I put the binding in place to see if I got them centered in the holes, at this point if I fucked anything up its possible to fix as opposed to trying to undrill a fuckup, yeah its slower but I don't mount bindings often and its still faster than fixing a misteak

    BTW mounting either a frame or tech AT toe piece by one screw and letting it rotate around that point is key to getting the frame rail or heels of the boot to drop perfectly into a heelpiece
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  15. #15
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    Feb 2019
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    11
    Thanks for all the help. I think I will end up using a soldering iron to heat them and soft mount. Will probably get a shop to put them in next time.

    So by unscrewing the heel and rescrewing them in, in a different order, I managed to get all 4 screws in in one heel but still only 3 of the 4 in in the other heel.
    It's the Cast Touring system and we have just started getting a bit of snow here in New Zealand so I was planning to go for my first tour on Tuesday but being Easter this weekend I can't get a soldering iron to fix the inserts, so will I be able to go for a tour with only 3 screws in one heel?

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
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    Juneau
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    806
    Quote Originally Posted by TimersMix View Post
    Thanks for all the help. I think I will end up using a soldering iron to heat them and soft mount. Will probably get a shop to put them in next time.

    So by unscrewing the heel and rescrewing them in, in a different order, I managed to get all 4 screws in in one heel but still only 3 of the 4 in in the other heel.
    It's the Cast Touring system and we have just started getting a bit of snow here in New Zealand so I was planning to go for my first tour on Tuesday but being Easter this weekend I can't get a soldering iron to fix the inserts, so will I be able to go for a tour with only 3 screws in one heel?
    Obvious question - you aren't driving each screw all the way in before moving to the next? If you are, just start them a little until each bites, then drive them down.

    I agree re rescue inserts and also didn't know about them. I assume you'd need a bigger bit and larger tap? The older kit with helicoils is kind of crap, or at least in my 1 or 2 attempts, I sucked at installing them.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
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    42
    Quote Originally Posted by dschane View Post
    I assume you'd need a bigger bit and larger tap?
    This is the kit including drill bit and tap:

    https://quiverkiller.com/products/qk-rescue-insert-kit

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
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    179
    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    more crazy talk eh ?

    So but instead of using said flacid piece of paper to drill all the holes before figuring out how many I actualy fucked up I will drill and mount the binding toe or heel by ONE screw, then I draw the rest of the round binding holes on masking tape which lets me see the exact center of the binding hole, I centerpunch with a drywall screw, I drill the holes using the smallest bit ( 1/16th ?) in the kit to drill , from there I put the binding in place to see if I got them centered in the holes, at this point if I fucked anything up its possible to fix as opposed to trying to undrill a fuckup, yeah its slower but I don't mount bindings often and its still faster than fixing a misteak
    This^^^^

    I only have small hand drill and usually fuck up every mount a bit, but this technique helps to recover from every situation. Just mount one by one, it takes couple of hours for a pair of skis, but you'll most likely get a good mount. As for the inserts, if I missed for a bit I just tap at angle.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by aanev View Post
    This is the kit including drill bit and tap:

    https://quiverkiller.com/products/qk-rescue-insert-kit
    Thanks.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimersMix View Post
    Thanks for all the help. I think I will end up using a soldering iron to heat them and soft mount. Will probably get a shop to put them in next time.

    So by unscrewing the heel and rescrewing them in, in a different order, I managed to get all 4 screws in in one heel but still only 3 of the 4 in in the other heel.
    It's the Cast Touring system and we have just started getting a bit of snow here in New Zealand so I was planning to go for my first tour on Tuesday but being Easter this weekend I can't get a soldering iron to fix the inserts, so will I be able to go for a tour with only 3 screws in one heel?
    I'd vote for 3 solid inserts being a stronger installation than 4 screws in a standard mount.

    You want to make sure your Pivot heel/brake assembly is functioning correctly, however. I don't have a Pivot in front of me to test whether there's any distortion or potential for stress on the half-moon part of the heel (assuming that it's one of the two long/rear screws that's missing).

    Perhaps a Pivot expert can comment.

    BTW, you took on the most finicky mount (along with tech bindings) to try on your first shot, and you added inserts into the mix. I wouldn't be too hard on myself. You're on your way toward being a mounting expert ;-)

    ... Thom
    Last edited by galibier_numero_un; 04-19-2019 at 05:17 PM.
    Galibier Design
    crafting technology in service of music

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