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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackstraw View Post
    I would agree, but if railed they would be a bitch on groomers. I'm going with a tune issue though.
    This is the big clue to me. They are fine on groomers. That makes me feel it's a balance point issue, not a tuning problem. Especially if it's happening in deeper snow.

    Trad camber, so work on rolling your ankles into your turns. Without tip rocker you have you charge a little to initiate in heavy snow, and rolling the ankles is a trick that helps folks feel it sometimes. Tail catching is usually a result of stiff tails and being backseat, and if you are used to tail rocker this issue can present itself when you switch to trad camber tails.

    fwiw. hopefully something in there helps.

  2. #27
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    You should go to the resort and rent some high performance PSIA dork ski instructor skis... and make peace with them. Then go back to your fat skis and marvel at the improvement.

    Also, detune the G3.

  3. #28
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    Well shit, already got the red ones so that's out. Will detune, blame the gear, then maybe learn to ski. Thanks for all the advice.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leavenworth Skier View Post
    You should go to the resort and rent some high performance PSIA dork ski instructor skis... and make peace with them. Then go back to your fat skis and marvel at the improvement.

    Also, detune the G3.
    Yup!

    When I returned from the dark (tele) side, I picked up a pair of Atomic Kongurs & mounted them with Verticals. I skied them along with a pair of G3 Reverends for quite a few years - both in and out of bounds.

    After getting more modern skis, I took the Kongurs out for a quick spin and had trouble tuning them. A couple of years before that, friend shot a video of me skiing some steep terrain with my Reverends, and my technique from that era involved quite a bit more "up" unweighting.

    So yeah, skis get better, and because I would ski worse with screw on edged, wooden skis from the '40's doesn't necessarily mean that I should start riding them (unless I want more exercise).

    Didier did pretty well on the Hahnenkamm & Lauberhorn, but not so well at his last race



    ... Thom
    Galibier Design
    crafting technology in service of music

  5. #30
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    Sep 2018
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    83
    Still think the ski is edge high as my last pair of Enforcer 93 were the same as you described. Measured edge high but decided to try and ski them anyway after retuning the edges and skied harder groomers all morning.

    Doing long gs style turns they held great on the hard snow and didnít feel too bad. After lunch though, I tried skiing in bumps, tighter spots and immediately noticed they didnít want to pivot and were tons of work trying to make shorter, quicker turns.

    Decided to get the shop at the hill to stone grind to actually make them flat. I skied my full camber skis while they were doing them and even they were much easier to pivot and do quicker turns on. Went over the edges on the E93 and itís like a different ski now. Still grip the groomers well but far quicker and easier when you want to do shorter turns or pivot on or off piste. Far less work and easy to ski now.

    Think itís a good sign that you think something is up with your skis as most of the time peopleís intuition are correct. Cambered skis are even more fussy to tuning issues so Iím not surprised.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by noslow View Post
    Still think the ski is edge high as my last pair of Enforcer 93 were the same as you described. Measured edge high but decided to try and ski them anyway after retuning the edges and skied harder groomers all morning.

    Doing long gs style turns they held great on the hard snow and didn’t feel too bad. After lunch though, I tried skiing in bumps, tighter spots and immediately noticed they didn’t want to pivot and were tons of work trying to make shorter, quicker turns.

    Decided to get the shop at the hill to stone grind to actually make them flat. I skied my full camber skis while they were doing them and even they were much easier to pivot and do quicker turns on. Went over the edges on the E93 and it’s like a different ski now. Still grip the groomers well but far quicker and easier when you want to do shorter turns or pivot on or off piste. Far less work and easy to ski now.

    Think it’s a good sign that you think something is up with your skis as most of the time people’s intuition are correct. Cambered skis are even more fussy to tuning issues so I’m not surprised.
    Sweet, will check later today. Here's hoping I can blame the gear.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacolac View Post
    ... Here's hoping I can blame the gear.
    Sig. worthy.
    Galibier Design
    crafting technology in service of music

  8. #33
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    Bases are flat

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacolac View Post
    Bases are flat
    detune tips and tails, go spend 2-3 days inbounds on them seeking out the worst snow you can, report back.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacolac View Post
    Bases are flat
    ya know, I love to say I told you so.

    8 yrs of slarving adds up.

    You dont need very much edge at all, get aggressive on the DE-tune.

    Dont conform to eastern born ski techniques. keeps it steezy, keep it loose.
    "Its not the arrow, its the Indian" - M.Pinto

  11. #36
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    Sep 2018
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacolac View Post
    Bases are flat
    You tested with a true bar with light behind tip to tail and then tried running a flat file across the bases to check edges? Then check that the base bevel at 1 degree and see if areas were higher than that too.
    Then try the ski and bring a gummy to fine tune.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by noslow View Post
    You tested with a true bar with light behind tip to tail and then tried running a flat file across the bases to check edges? Then check that the base bevel at 1 degree and see if areas were higher than that too.
    Then try the ski and bring a gummy to fine tune.
    I tested with the length side of some digital calipers. Figured they would be pretty much flat. Don't have a true bar. Didn't put a light behind there but if there's any gap, it's absolutely minimal as I can't see it.

    Don't quite understand the method of running the flat file across the bases to check edges? Which direction do you run the file?

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmcrawfo View Post
    ya know, I love to say I told you so.

    8 yrs of slarving adds up.

    You dont need very much edge at all, get aggressive on the DE-tune.

    Dont conform to eastern born ski techniques. keeps it steezy, keep it loose.
    This is probably it. I like to get sideways. Damn camber.

  14. #39
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    May 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacolac View Post
    This is probably it. I like to get sideways. Damn camber.
    I always preferred skis with camber more. I toyed with flat and RR, but kept going back because I liked the feel and I learned on long straight skis with camber. Slarving around and sliding sideways is fun but skiing is funnerer.

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  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skidog View Post
    I always preferred skis with camber more. I toyed with flat and RR, but kept going back because... GET OFF MY LAWN!
    Kids these days.... have you heard about this snowboard thing? Dont get me started.... Not in my resort, not never!
    "Its not the arrow, its the Indian" - M.Pinto

  16. #41
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    May 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmcrawfo View Post
    Kids these days.... have you heard about this snowboard thing? Dont get me started.... Not in my resort, not never!
    The skis with camber I skied of late were not without new tech, shapes, and that cool stuff, but yeah I guess.

    Get off my lawn.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using TGR Forums mobile app
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    I wish i could be like SkiFishBum

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacolac View Post
    I tested with the length side of some digital calipers. Figured they would be pretty much flat. Don't have a true bar. Didn't put a light behind there but if there's any gap, it's absolutely minimal as I can't see it.

    Don't quite understand the method of running the flat file across the bases to check edges? Which direction do you run the file?
    I don't get how one would use a digital caliper to check true-ness. Using it as a straight edge?

    Search YouTube for "flat file ski bases". I don't have time to run through this to weed out the incompetents, but you'll get a general idea from most of the videos.

    If the bases are way out (super railed), it's a lot of work.

    ... Thom
    Galibier Design
    crafting technology in service of music

  18. #43
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    Sep 2018
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    Click image for larger version. 

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    Use a true bar, plastic wax scrapper or metal scrapper on its edge and have light on the other side and check for light coming through. The pic is showing edge high or light coming through the bottom which I think you have on your skis.

    After getting the ski flat or it it seems flat, use a flat file like in the 1st pic and run it from tip to tail and see if it catches at all. Clean the file often and run the file tip to tail until no area ďcatchesĒ any more. Most times when people feel the need to detune, that ski will catch with a file and may need a grind as well.

  19. #44
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    Oct 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by noslow View Post
    Most times when people feel the need to detune, that ski will catch with a file and may need a grind as well.
    and most of the time these people are going from a Reverse/Revers ski, to a traditional camber, after they have skied and re-developed their skiing style habits over the last 8 years?

    Not to discredit any validity in your theory, however I think you guy are failing to acknowledge a key piece of information.... That said, I am gonna go home and check the bases on my own skis... who knows, I may still be not 100% right on this. Stranger things have happened.
    "Its not the arrow, its the Indian" - M.Pinto

  20. #45
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    Mar 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by noslow View Post
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    Use a true bar, plastic wax scrapper or metal scrapper on its edge and have light on the other side and check for light coming through. The pic is showing edge high or light coming through the bottom which I think you have on your skis.

    After getting the ski flat or it it seems flat, use a flat file like in the 1st pic and run it from tip to tail and see if it catches at all. Clean the file often and run the file tip to tail until no area “catches” any more. Most times when people feel the need to detune, that ski will catch with a file and may need a grind as well.
    Some skis are so concave that you'd have to grind over a full mm of edge and p-tex on the outsides to make them truly flat. Most would just make sure they are flat from the edges in about a centimeter or so. The ski in that photo looks to be like that.
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  21. #46
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    Sep 2018
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    83
    Iíve yet to have a pair of skis that didnít need at least a few passes on the stone grinder and a touch up of the edges before they were close to their potential. Some were skiable, some were down right scary from the factory but all were improved by a tune up.

    With machine feed stone grinders, you could make a few hundred passes and still have base/edge material left. Most stone grinds jobs are in the 4-6 pass range with ones similar to those pictured might be in the 10 pass range to get pretty flat. Base high issues I find are more common and those need less passes to correct usually.
    Itís the free hand belt sander grinding by newbies that can take off lots of material very quickly. I never get belt grinds, only machine fed stone grinds to prevent removing too much material and only get them done when needed

    Sounds like the tune is off AND the new skis are more revealing of that type of issue. An Edge high, cambered ski would feel super locked in a turn compared to surfy, rockered ski like the OP is used to.

    Never hurts to have a trusted shop have a look before giving up the ability to blame the skis for your issues! Lol

  22. #47
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    Nov 2010
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    Squamish
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    Alright, got some photos of the base in the order of front, underfoot and tail of the ski. Note I dont have a true bar so I'm just a pair calipers as a straight edge. Figured they'd be precision straight enough but not sure. There is obviously some kind of gap but it seems so minimal (looks worse in photos than in person I think). I also checked my other skis and they all seem to have a bit of a concave base to varying degree.

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  23. #48
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    Sep 2018
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    83
    Yes, those are edge high and would ski exactly how you’re describing them! Simple stone grind to flatten and touch up the edges and you’re golden. Mention to the shop that they seem to be base high and they can measure and take the appropriate passes to fix them. I’d guess 6-10 total passes. G3 skis are factory set at 1 degree base, 1 degree side.


    Perfection is not needed but it shouldn’t be quite as easily visible as that. Again, your other skis with rockered areas may not be as fussy as a cambered ski especially in the tip/tail area which are your “worse” areas on your pics.

    Glad they are off so you still have a possible “it’s the gear” excuse intact. I’d be very interested in hearing what you think after. Bet you will be surprised how different they ski.

  24. #49
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    Feb 2006
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    Among Greatness All Around
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    I had a pair of skis years ago that were not skiing the way they should have. I struggled and had 2 different shops look at them and the 2nd did a full grind or tune to make sure the bases were in fact flat and the edges were done right. Did improve but still did not seem like they were 100% (Had a friend that had the same model- but 5 cm shorter that skied much better...)

    Came down to finally after all the work and looking at the bases, it also had something to do with the junk used Marker bindings I mistakenly had mounted up on the plates and slop and play to my boots also. Pulled those Marker (M series Turbo- Select Control??) and put some Look (Rossi) Pivot bindings on them and skied like they should... So check if there is play or anything with the bindings also if you are sure the tune is correct....

  25. #50
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    Jan 2009
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    Park City
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    Yeah, thatís an edge high ski. Get them ground, ask for a 1degree base bevel and a 2degree side bevel with appropriated defining. I think you will be blown away. As an earlier poster stated, I now ski my traditional skis sharp tip to tail if flat and beveled. Attended a tuning workshop by a WC tuner from atomic who was preaching it. I thought he was nuts and it would make the skis hooky....man was I wrong. Just makes them quick to engage.


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    I rip the groomed on tele gear

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