Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 34
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    SLC
    Posts
    4,433

    Tech/tele boot hybrid / "tech telemark" binding?

    After just racing the Grand Traverse, I realize how completely inappropriate even the lightest skimo-style AT setup is for that sort of travel (37 miles with only 8300' of climbing). It was hateful beyond words but, like anything unpleasant, some stupid part of me wants to do it again, better. What I am wondering is: is there a light (~1kg) boot with tech fittings + a forefoot bellows like a tele boot? I think some sort of "tech telemark" binding hybrid, combined with an ultralight fishscale ski (either a Voile Objective BC in a short length or a metal-edged XC ski with fishscales) would be the ticket for this sort of terrain, bringing skins only for the occasional "real" climb; but, doing this sort of travel in ordinary AT boots sucks, for nordic-style striding/gliding you really want at worst a tele-boot level of boot flex. Most ordinary tele boots are fucking heavy though, and I suck ass at (and thus hate) making telemark turns... so for any actual ski descents, I'd want to fix my heels. For the rolling stuff, rather than skiing downhill with skins on in walk mode (which sucks ass), or making a thousand transitions that even my rando-commando self does not want to do, it would be great to be able to say, flip one boot lever and tele down on fishscales.

    I have seen this binding: https://www.campsaver.com/telemark-t...TFF-TTSS-LARGE

    It seems to me that you could use a skimo race binding (eg Plum 150 or similar) and keep just the tele cable from that setup there, leave the Plum 150 in flat mode and tele/fishscale, then rotate the binding to ski mode and still engage the heel pins? This would require a boot with a foreboot bellows and a tech heel... maybe like a TLT5? I think Scarpa had something remotely like this. Does anyone know?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    5,409
    The former versions of the Scarpa F1 and F3 had bellows. They are highly sought after in the tele community to pair with TTS bindings though so good luck finding a pair.

    Name:  IMG_3164.JPG
Views: 430
Size:  28.5 KB

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    270
    If you want to get creative-

    This guy is using cut down mercuries for Alaska bushwacking-

    http://telemarktalk.com/viewtopic.ph...=1407&start=10

    Inspired by him I started but got no further than modding my TLT5s- Full ramble here-

    http://telemarktalk.com/viewtopic.ph...nrothar#p26355


    For mellow Downhills/skating I considered trying th ephantom split board ski mode which uses a voile strap through a slot to give a loose heel lock down.

    see here halfway down-

    https://www.wildsnow.com/22114/phant...g-term-review/

    Sorry for links, can't seem to post the photos direct. Feel free to put photos up if you can.

    Lack of local snow and time derailed this project . Will try to work on it next season

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    here and there
    Posts
    14,706
    Praxis RX

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    113
    The scarpa f1 carbon comes in at about 1100g in some versions, but is sort of a unicorn. I have and tele on some of the f1s that come in more around 1600g. My diy TTS setup comes in at about 600g total (including leashes and mounts for voile crampons), so also not that light. I could get it about 150g lighter by using some race toes and losing the shims. The lightest tts iterations I have seen are just above 400g, so still not really in the ballpark of the 300g binding thread.

    I have them mounted on some voile vector BCs and it is a fantastic setup for tours with flat approaches or exits. Its so nice to get to the bottom of the run, just pop the heel cable off and start kicking out sans transition. Scaled skis with TTS are the tits.

    The major issue is skiability. It might not be an issue for the GT where you don't do as much skiing, but the bindings don't actually ski all that well due to the limitations of the currently available parts. Unlike a 75mm boot that gets a lot of leverage from that big ole duckbill, the tech boots just pivot on the pins, requiring a much more rearward pivot point to get a similar feel. Current spring cartridges are designed for 75mm bindings with more forward pivot points, and so when setup on a TTS binding they bottom out. The smaller your boot the more luck you will have, but even with my 26.5 boots I haven't found a combination that I am happy with. I am using the medium flex kreuzspitze cartridges (some of the longest travel cartridges available), and I want to go lower than the binding allows. Its not that I have a really low style, its that the bindings have such little activity (even with a -57mm pivot point) that I want to go lower to feel more stable. I can rip on leather boots and pins, but when I do I am going much lower than I do on my NTN setups. I've experimented with more rearward pivot points and they provide a better feel but even further limit range of motion. This setup skis fine in easy snow for me but as a spring skiing setup where I encounter suncupped bullshit and firm steeps occasionally, they have been a bit scary.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    113
    Quote Originally Posted by mall walker View Post
    I suck ass at (and thus hate) making telemark turns... so for any actual ski descents, I'd want to fix my heels. For the rolling stuff, rather than skiing downhill with skins on in walk mode (which sucks ass), or making a thousand transitions that even my rando-commando self does not want to do, it would be great to be able to say, flip one boot lever and tele down on fishscales.
    Wrote my previous reply without really realizing thst you didnt care about the tele performance since you suck. In that case you might be fine with the current arrangements, but they still aren't light.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    The 8th best place in the LBP
    Posts
    2,686
    Why do you feel you need to fix your heels to make alpine turns on tele gear? I spent many years on tele gear and half my turns were alpine, just depending on the situation or my mood. I did not find it hard to make quality high speed alpine turns without having fixed heels. You do want bindings with a certain amount of torsional rigidity to minimize any side-to-side slop, but any modern plastic duckbill boot/cable binding combo will work fine.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    113
    Quote Originally Posted by yeahman View Post
    Why do you feel you need to fix your heels to make alpine turns on tele gear? I spent many years on tele gear and half my turns were alpine, just depending on the situation or my mood. I did not find it hard to make quality high speed alpine turns without having fixed heels. You do want bindings with a certain amount of torsional rigidity to minimize any side-to-side slop, but any modern plastic duckbill boot/cable binding combo will work fine.
    This is true too. If I find myself in a situation where my diy setup is less than adequate, I just p-turn until I am in easier terrain. Recently strained my quad and spent 3 days at the resort carving p-turns and I didn't have any trouble.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    SLC
    Posts
    4,433
    Quote Originally Posted by yeahman View Post
    Why do you feel you need to fix your heels to make alpine turns on tele gear? I spent many years on tele gear and half my turns were alpine, just depending on the situation or my mood. I did not find it hard to make quality high speed alpine turns without having fixed heels. You do want bindings with a certain amount of torsional rigidity to minimize any side-to-side slop, but any modern plastic duckbill boot/cable binding combo will work fine.
    Well, my thought was more along the lines of "I'd like to be able to have some vaguely tele-feel with the heel unlocked in my AT setup"... I am not a tele skier, and making alpine turns on tele gear sucks in my experience. I guess I feel like I'm coming from AT toward possibly a partially-tele setup, not the other way around. If the choice were between tele (making AT turns on tele gear) and AT (dealing with AT gear in rolling terrain) I'd probably still go AT.

    It does seem mechanically possible to, if I had an old green scarpa F1, use a tech toe/heel with the tele heel cable for the best of both worlds on say, a fishscale Voile objective... but the juice may not be worth the squeeze I guess.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Central OR
    Posts
    4,933
    Quote Originally Posted by mall walker View Post
    Well, my thought was more along the lines of "I'd like to be able to have some vaguely tele-feel with the heel unlocked in my AT setup"... I am not a tele skier, and making alpine turns on tele gear sucks in my experience. I guess I feel like I'm coming from AT toward possibly a partially-tele setup, not the other way around. If the choice were between tele (making AT turns on tele gear) and AT (dealing with AT gear in rolling terrain) I'd probably still go AT.

    It does seem mechanically possible to, if I had an old green scarpa F1, use a tech toe/heel with the tele heel cable for the best of both worlds on say, a fishscale Voile objective... but the juice may not be worth the squeeze I guess.
    The latest version of the Meidjo binding has a lockable tech heel, like Dynafit. Light bindings, too.

    https://www.the-m-equipment.com/en/c...-alpin-heelset

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    The 8th best place in the LBP
    Posts
    2,686
    Quote Originally Posted by mall walker View Post
    making alpine turns on tele gear sucks in my experience.
    It really doesn't suck. How much have you done it? More than once I skied with alpine skiers and they never even knew I was on tele gear, and when they realized it they were very surprised. Based purely on my turns, they had no idea. Granted I'm the best skier on TGR but that's beside the point.

    However, I've never done it on NTN gear, and I don't think it would work as well. I think the duckbill part of the boot being secured into the metal front piece of the binding really provides the rigidity needed. Crank the cables tight and you're good to go. I've never been sold on the whole NTN concept anyway, but I've never skied it, just basing my opinion on friends who have switched and IMO did not ski as well. Probably a separate thread topic though.

    Anyway, just a suggestion, good luck in your quest.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    SLC
    Posts
    4,433
    Quote Originally Posted by yeahman View Post
    It really doesn't suck. How much have you done it?
    I skied a few years on the east coast in tele gear, basically making alpine turns... I still blame that period for how often I get in the back seat these days. You can never put any forward pressure on your boot or you go over the handlebars! I mean you can survive doing it, but imo anyway it is highly suboptimal. It's all relative I suppose - it is obviously better than skiing AT gear without the heel locked, and better than any type of nordic gear. But I feel a thousand times more confident even on the chintziest skimo gear with heel-locked than I do on a burly tele setup. (again: I really suck at dropping the knee)

    edit: anyway, for the somewhat academic purposes of this post, I'm just curious of this type of hybrid is possible. If I were a strong tele skier I would just use a light tele / fishscale setup; if I were a strong nordic skier, nordic gear is clearly the most efficient for this sort of travel. But I do all my skiing on light AT gear, so was hoping for a compromise which included a fixed-heel option...

    Quote Originally Posted by Flyoverland Captive View Post
    The latest version of the Meidjo binding has a lockable tech heel, like Dynafit. Light bindings, too.

    https://www.the-m-equipment.com/en/c...-alpin-heelset
    That is pretty cool.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    242

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    SLC
    Posts
    4,433
    Quote Originally Posted by dacksdescents View Post
    yeah.. that is a perfect GT ski imo

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    316
    Quote Originally Posted by yeahman View Post
    It really doesn't suck.
    Depends on the setup. My old tele setup had quite a bit of rocker launch and coming from Alpine skiing making parallel turns with your heels floating off the skis, unless you were well in the back seat, felt horrible.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    The 8th best place in the LBP
    Posts
    2,686
    Those are interesting observations on alpine turns/tele gear. Not my experience at all though. I never felt compelled to stay in the back seat, I actually felt like it was quite natural to keep the weight on the forward half of my feet and drive the turns, or at the very least centered. The only time my heel really left the ski was between turns when I unweighted--it made kind of a clacking noise that I liked lol. The boots were pretty beefy, though, Scarpa T1's, lots of support and a stiff duckbill. And I never did it on a rockered ski either, only traditional camber, so that may have helped. Between the 1980s and 2000s I switched back and forth between tele gear and alpine gear maybe 4 times, sticking with each for several years before switching back. Been on alpine gear for the past 7-8 years and obviously I love it but I do sometimes miss having the option of dropping a knee whenever I feel like it.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    411
    Rumor has it Crispi is working on a lightweight, carbon upper tele boot with tech inserts. Source = Crispi US disbtributo Telemarkdown: https://www.facebook.com/telemarkdow...3313048715923/

    PS - parallel turns work great on NTN gear. Not just heavy Rottafella -- the OMG TTS system with Dynafit toes parallels really well too, with the cable pivot set back to be more active.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    SLC
    Posts
    4,433

    Tech/tele boot hybrid / "tech telemark" binding?

    Quote Originally Posted by yeahman View Post
    Those are interesting observations on alpine turns/tele gear. Not my experience at all though. I never felt compelled to stay in the back seat, I actually felt like it was quite natural to keep the weight on the forward half of my feet and drive the turns, or at the very least centered. The only time my heel really left the ski was between turns when I unweighted--it made kind of a clacking noise that I liked lol. The boots were pretty beefy, though, Scarpa T1's, lots of support and a stiff duckbill. And I never did it on a rockered ski either, only traditional camber, so that may have helped. Between the 1980s and 2000s I switched back and forth between tele gear and alpine gear maybe 4 times, sticking with each for several years before switching back. Been on alpine gear for the past 7-8 years and obviously I love it but I do sometimes miss having the option of dropping a knee whenever I feel like it.
    Sure, you can do it and get used to it. And I skied some 40+ descents making parallel turns on tele gear. But I would RATHER not, hence this thread. The "it is possible to convince me to go tele" era of my life has ended

    ^ those crispis look pretty neat though.

    and fwiw, it could be a cool quiver setup... big spring days, big range traverses (Oquirrh, La Sal, etc)

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    402
    I ski the bellowed f1 and defender(f3) with the first linked tts binding. I also use the same boots with vipec bindings.
    Can't actually telemark the defender boots(bellows still too stiff) but, f1s work fine. I use Voile cables with a "backcountry", less active spring installed. Did have to spend some time adjusting the mount so's I could actually make telemark turns.
    I change from switchback telemark bindings, tts and tech toes depending on snow conditions or how I feel with minimal, maybe a few turns, getting used to.
    Old guy, over 60, telemark since mid seventies, at since early 80s. I prefer ski touring with a bellowed boot and free heel binding.
    edit to add: I don't use the linked tts toe piece. It is a piece of shit.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    270
    Quote Originally Posted by nickinbc View Post
    Depends on the setup. My old tele setup had quite a bit of rocker launch and coming from Alpine skiing making parallel turns with your heels floating off the skis, unless you were well in the back seat, felt horrible.
    Totally Agree with this. The old Voile under binding wedge totally fixed this problem, even when skiing with just a three pin. Didn't help wth climbing efficiency though.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    270
    If you don't want to go as radical as the boot mods I posted, a TLT 5 with the rivets removed at the forefoot flex area would probably get you what you are looking for.

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Western MT
    Posts
    1,181
    Quote Originally Posted by yeahman View Post
    It really doesn't suck. How much have you done it? More than once I skied with alpine skiers and they never even knew I was on tele gear, and when they realized it they were very surprised. Based purely on my turns, they had no idea. Granted I'm the best skier on TGR but that's beside the point.

    However, I've never done it on NTN gear, and I don't think it would work as well. I think the duckbill part of the boot being secured into the metal front piece of the binding really provides the rigidity needed. Crank the cables tight and you're good to go. I've never been sold on the whole NTN concept anyway, but I've never skied it, just basing my opinion on friends who have switched and IMO did not ski as well. Probably a separate thread topic though.

    Anyway, just a suggestion, good luck in your quest.
    Alpine turns on NTN are much better than the 75mm setups I have skied due to the increased edge control and more immediate response. The 22 Designs Axl with stiff boots was pretty close though. Obviously still not an alpine setup, but some of us are luddites

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Juneau
    Posts
    812
    Quote Originally Posted by mall walker View Post
    After just racing the Grand Traverse, I realize how completely inappropriate even the lightest skimo-style AT setup is for that sort of travel (37 miles with only 8300' of climbing). It was hateful beyond words but, like anything unpleasant, some stupid part of me wants to do it again, better. What I am wondering is: is there a light (~1kg) boot with tech fittings + a forefoot bellows like a tele boot? I think some sort of "tech telemark" binding hybrid, combined with an ultralight fishscale ski (either a Voile Objective BC in a short length or a metal-edged XC ski with fishscales) would be the ticket for this sort of terrain, bringing skins only for the occasional "real" climb; but, doing this sort of travel in ordinary AT boots sucks, for nordic-style striding/gliding you really want at worst a tele-boot level of boot flex. Most ordinary tele boots are fucking heavy though, and I suck ass at (and thus hate) making telemark turns... so for any actual ski descents, I'd want to fix my heels. For the rolling stuff, rather than skiing downhill with skins on in walk mode (which sucks ass), or making a thousand transitions that even my rando-commando self does not want to do, it would be great to be able to say, flip one boot lever and tele down on fishscales.

    I have seen this binding: https://www.campsaver.com/telemark-t...TFF-TTSS-LARGE

    It seems to me that you could use a skimo race binding (eg Plum 150 or similar) and keep just the tele cable from that setup there, leave the Plum 150 in flat mode and tele/fishscale, then rotate the binding to ski mode and still engage the heel pins? This would require a boot with a foreboot bellows and a tech heel... maybe like a TLT5? I think Scarpa had something remotely like this. Does anyone know?
    I defer to others re best boot/binding combination for racing the GT. Some comments on tech tele -

    The guy who came out with that binding deserves a shit ton of credit for making telemark light again. But, the toes on that binding blow, unless you like popping out while in locked and touring.

    You can get that set up as a "conversion kit" (everything but the the toes) and then use Dynafit Speed Rad toes or their equivalent. Then, it's no problem, except for deep telemark turns where the cables bottom out, unless you get the long and soft ones, but those are pretty squishy.

    Kreuzspitze has a sweet system that also allows for a locking heel. It's spendy and available at skimo.com, and that doesn't include the toes, heels, or heel throws -- more spendy, but it's very well made and very dependable, though rotating the heel pieces between touring and lockdown is brutish. The hole pattern on that kit is compatible with both Dynafit Rad 1.0 and the older 5-hole Vertical pattern. My wife has that set up, and while she spends most days on Marker Kingpins, she breaks these out when conditions are meh or in the spring/rock season -- for tele, the heel throws stay in your pack until you reach the top and then easily pop on.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG-5324.jpg 
Views:	47 
Size:	1.15 MB 
ID:	276852

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG-5323.jpg 
Views:	50 
Size:	1.17 MB 
ID:	276853

    You can find Scarpa F3s (also sold as the Defender) somewhat easily on the Web. F1s, F1 Races, and F1 Carbons are somewhat rarer, in increasing order. The F1 Carbons seem to be as common as sasquatch within the U.S. For a fair amount of money, you can get the F1 Races here.

    The walk mechanism on the F1s may interfere with some tele heel levers. I'm told it works with the OMG heel levers (same as ones you found at Campsaver).

    As previously mentioned, the F1s do not ski nearly as well as the Tx or Tx Pro boots. You can make tele turns in them, but definitely more challenging and a bit squirrelier.

    At the end of the day, if the goal is for a great touring boot with a natural stride, I'd nix the tele part and get the F1 Races to match with a pair of light AT bindings. You'd just need one of those pucks so you don't compress your way out of the bindings in bumpy terrain -- I may have a spare pair somewhere. My size 28 Races weigh about 1220g per boot. The original liner is super thin and the liners from the regular F1s are, IMO, more comfortable and slightly stiffer.
    Last edited by dschane; 04-02-2019 at 12:36 AM.

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    316
    Quote Originally Posted by yeahman View Post
    And I never did it on a rockered ski either, only traditional camber, so that may have helped.
    Rocker launch is nothing to do with the ski being rockered. It is the combination of the binding and the rocker in the boot sole - some boots in some bindings leave the heel of the boot well above the surface of the ski. Not an issue for tele turns where the heel of front foot is lifted anyway and rear is weighted back. Parallel turns feel like being on tip toes.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    113
    Quote Originally Posted by dschane View Post
    As previously mentioned, the F1s do not ski nearly as well as the Tx or Tx Pro boots. You can make tele turns in them, but definitely more challenging and a bit squirrelier.
    I believe I have the f1 comps? Or races? They are circa 2006 from my research. My pair tele really quite well. It was pretty suprising how well they worked actually, I find them to be similar in skiability to a scarpa TX. The bindings are the major short coming imo. Whether in my TXs or F1s I haven't had good luck in shitty snow.

    On the perfect GT setup: I'm pretty sure the course record was set on skate skis, but if I were to do it I would use low leathers and pins on a pair of shorter/fatter waxable xcd skis. Like a 180cm Karhu Guide or Catamount. The voile objective could work as well. No transition time for the bindings or boots, only when you need to put on skins. (I am not that familiar woth the course but assume you need skins at some point or another) A true double cambered xcd ski would dominate the flatter sections, but I have yet to master skiing anything but groomed slopes on skis that skinny/cambered. A slightly fatter ski with some tip rocker and sidecut would make a world of difference for the downs.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •