Free Stuff, Fraud or Fair?

[SumJongGuy]

Private industry has been doing this for decades to pull back workman's comp and dismiss disability and injury lawsuits. Now Uncle Sam is proposing to monitor peoples' social media accounts if they are collecting disability to deny claims or prosecute fraud as they see fit. We all do it some, see that person park up front in the handicapped spot with their permit but they look perfectly healthy to us. Usually, there is a handicap we can't detect from just watching them walk.

So, is it fair for Uncle Sam to say people who post photos of themselves skiing (or even sit skiing?) shouldn't be able to collect Social Security disability pay?

[SKIP IN7RO]

Uh-oh!

[Ottime]

Well, if it is fraud, then yes.

We don’t all “do it”.

Work Comp fraud is a real thing. I recall a co worker purposely falling down stairs at work to get a few days off. Ended up breaking a bone. The boss was an ass, so I did not share details. Turns out that would not be fraud because he actually hurt himself. At least in CA, doing stupid shot at work, and/or breaking rules, does not absolve the business from WC.

[Benny Profane]

Wait until they see that lunch pic I posted in the Ikon thread. There goes the Caddilac.

[Danno]

I do not think the government should have the authority to monitor your social media because you have a disability or workers comp claim. But absolutely, fraud should be prosecuted, and yeah, we don't all do it.

[stuckathuntermtn]

Well, if you're too dumb to not make that shit viewable by the public, then yeah.
I mean if your Strava and IG are full of you doing shit you're not supposed to be able to do, someone should put you through the fucking wall.

[old goat]

Well, if you're too dumb to not make that shit viewable by the public, then yeah.
I mean if your Strava and IG are full of you doing shit you're not supposed to be able to do, someone should put you through the fucking wall.

If you're dumb enough to be on disability and then post pics of yourself skiing etc, you're probably too dumb to work so you should be able to get disability for that.

[evdog]

So, disabled people aren't allowed to do anything fun?

Will also be interesting to see how they plan to connect user accounts to real people's identities. Facial recognition? Going by usernames won't be very useful. People who post tons of selfies will be the first to get busted. One more reason to never take selfies.

[Danno]

So, disabled people aren't allowed to do anything fun?

Miss the point much? He's talking about someone claiming a physical disability that they suffered that now prevents them from being able to work at their job. That person is of course still allowed to do fun things, but if they're collecting disability because they can no longer stand for 5 minutes without significant pain, a video of them playing full court basketball would be a little problematic, no?

[DJSapp]

I'm all for it. I've dealt with enough people trying to game the system via workman's comp claims, hired PI's to investigate only to get photos of someone with a "back injury" and claimed he couldn't lift more than 5 lbs. building a block wall at his house.

These are our tax dollars at work. If people are defrauding the system and are dumb enough to leave some low hanging fruit out in the public domain that would jeopardize their claim, get the info and prosecute for fraud. One photo on instabookwitter isn't enough to seal the deal on a court case, but it is enough to start an investigation. I'd think this kind of monitoring is more of a first pass to figure out who to investigate further.

[dunfree]

Miss the point much? He's talking about someone claiming a physical disability that they suffered that now prevents them from being able to work at their job. That person is of course still allowed to do fun things, but if they're collecting disability because they can no longer stand for 5 minutes without significant pain, a video of them playing full court basketball would be a little problematic, no?

there are plenty of injurys that might not be a problem once or twice, or even for a couple days, but might be a problem 260 days a year for 8 hrs a day. A video of them playing basketball would surely be problematic in court, but what if the reality was the guy was laid up in bed for a day after the game? How do you value that kind of disability, or do you pretend its not?

overall I just see a broken system - it encourages fraud on the part of recipients, it also encourages if not legal fraud on the part of employers, plenty of shady conduct. It now functions as a half assed social welfare scheme that encourages permanent dependence.

[Dantheman]

These are our tax dollars at work. If people are defrauding the system and are dumb enough to leave some low hanging fruit out in the public domain that would jeopardize their claim, get the info and prosecute for fraud. One photo on instabookwitter isn't enough to seal the deal on a court case, but it is enough to start an investigation. I'd think this kind of monitoring is more of a first pass to figure out who to investigate further.

I thought this was standard practice already. I know I've seen articles where people's FB posts led to fraud investigations and criminal prosecution (remember, kids, disability fraud is a felony).

I'm with you for sure, since the standard right-wing talking point is that people abuse public assistance, so therefore we should eliminate public assistance programs. Of course that's asinine and what should be done is step up fraud enforcement. IIRC, the standard rule is that every dollar spent on fraud prevention/enforcement returns ten dollars in fraud savings.

[Dantheman]

there are plenty of injurys that might not be a problem once or twice, or even for a couple days, but might be a problem 260 days a year for 8 hrs a day. A video of them playing basketball would surely be problematic in court, but what if the reality was the guy was laid up in bed for a day after the game? How do you value that kind of disability, or do you pretend its not?

Like DJSapp said, video of the basketball game or other hypothetical activity could/should be used to initiate a more thorough investigation. Alone it shouldn't be grounds to terminate someone's benefits and prosecute them for fraud.

overall I just see a broken system - it encourages fraud on the part of recipients, it also encourages if not legal fraud on the part of employers, plenty of shady conduct. It now functions as a half assed social welfare scheme that encourages permanent dependence.

Direct result of late '90s welfare reform: http://apps.npr.org/unfit-for-work/

TL;DR version: Welfare reform pushed a bunch of the financial burden of welfare onto the states. So, states actively pushed people into SSDI instead, often on a dubious basis, since the Feds foot the entire bill for SSDI. Even then, the acceptance rate for SSDI is only about 20% IIRC.

[Danno]

there are plenty of injurys that might not be a problem once or twice, or even for a couple days, but might be a problem 260 days a year for 8 hrs a day. A video of them playing basketball would surely be problematic in court, but what if the reality was the guy was laid up in bed for a day after the game? How do you value that kind of disability, or do you pretend its not?

overall I just see a broken system - it encourages fraud on the part of recipients, it also encourages if not legal fraud on the part of employers, plenty of shady conduct. It now functions as a half assed social welfare scheme that encourages permanent dependence.

I was just using a simple hypothetical example to explain to him what the issue being discussed was, that it wasn't "they're not allowed to have fun if they're disabled". Of course there might be more nuance if we get down to the brass tacks of a particular person and their disability and the evidence presented potentially refuting that disability.

[PNWbrit]

Wrong forum jong.

[SumJongGuy]

So, disabled people aren't allowed to do anything fun?

Will also be interesting to see how they plan to connect user accounts to real people's identities. Facial recognition? Going by usernames won't be very useful. People who post tons of selfies will be the first to get busted. One more reason to never take selfies.

It's called a subpoena. Force the operators to turn over the email contact to user name tables. And Zuckerberg and others are doing it for cash to private companies and political lobbies..

[SumJongGuy]

So, what about someone who has enough physical prowess to ski for 4 hours but parks in the handicapped spot up at the front, with a permit to do so? I'm gonna say if you can ski, or sit ski for 4 hours you can probably walk or roll 300 feet across the parking lot. Now I do get that some folks need a wider spot to get their adaptive gear set up with them in it ready to roll.. Just saying they don't "need" to be up at the front row necessarily if they have the physical ability to ski or hike or whatever..

And, if they can do that, there are probably part time jobs they an do if not full time jobs. Problem is there may be other things in play like a seizure disorder or fainting and on and on that might not be obvious to us folks giving them the stink eye and actually do have a legit need to disability and a better parking spot.. Question is, would skiing really be an option for people who are too disabled to do ANY job full time?

[dunfree]

I was just using a simple hypothetical example to explain to him what the issue being discussed was, that it wasn't "they're not allowed to have fun if they're disabled". Of course there might be more nuance if we get down to the brass tacks of a particular person and their disability and the evidence presented potentially refuting that disability.

part of the problem is the system doesn't seem to allow for much nuance, nor do peoples views of it. And there's a long standing view in some quarters that people on public assistance are not supposed to have "fun" even if "fun" might make them more productive.

One other thing I'll say is people act like "disability" is independent of the overall labor market. It's not. Workers may be too disabled to be hired for a job, but not disabled enough to work at said job. As the labor market tightens the barriers to hiring decrease, and like now, marginal workers join the labor force. Some of them may well get fired in the next downturn. This is part 'n parcel of "the skills gap" being utter bullshit.

[PNWbrit]

the sitskier can park wherever they want!
but the folks working the handicap system annoy me
as much as the fake service dog owners at restaurants

Apparently we're now also supposed to be upset about hipster fake homelessness.

[Benny Profane]

There was a guy who claimed disability from the NYFD a few decades ago and then won the annual foot race up the stairs of the Empire State Building. Doh. Front page of the Daily News. Did not end well for him.

[Dantheman]

I'm gonna say if you can...sit ski for 4 hours you can probably...roll 300 feet across the parking lot.

Seriously? Wow.

Run-the-mill abuse of handicapped spots is douchey, but it doesn't involve fraudulent use of millions of dollars of public money so IDGAF.

[Danno]

So, what about someone who has enough physical prowess to ski for 4 hours but parks in the handicapped spot up at the front, with a permit to do so? I'm gonna say if you can ski, or sit ski for 4 hours you can probably walk or roll 300 feet across the parking lot. Now I do get that some folks need a wider spot to get their adaptive gear set up with them in it ready to roll.. Just saying they don't "need" to be up at the front row necessarily if they have the physical ability to ski or hike or whatever..

There's so many things wrong with this I don't know where to begin.

Run-the-mill abuse of handicapped spots is douchey, but it doesn't involve fraudulent use of millions of dollars of public money so IDGAF.

He's not talking about "abuse of handicapped spots", he's saying that we should not allow actual verifiably handicapped people the use of handicapped spots because they're not handicapped enough in his eyes. Unless you view someone in a wheelchair or with a prosthetic leg as abusing the handicapped parking system.

[PNWbrit]

like the hipster fake homeless from NE. we know now that there’s no real homeless folks anywhere in that utopia.

Even the homeless don't care about the east coast?

[Kenny Satch]

So, disabled people aren't allowed to do anything fun?

Will also be interesting to see how they plan to connect user accounts to real people's identities. Facial recognition? Going by usernames won't be very useful. People who post tons of selfies will be the first to get busted. One more reason to never take selfies.

Big Brother is already here.
Because of that my paranoia caused me to use fictional names for FuckBook and Twatter
I'm sure if they really want to dig they can but on the surface they got nothing on me. Time to slip on some ice before cameras are everywhere

[PNWbrit]

my paranoia

Does it get you a parking space? Or an assistance animal?