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  1. #476
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    Quote Originally Posted by TBS View Post
    yup, another example of viewing addiction as a moral failure rather than a disease.
    false dichotomy. There are often elements of both simultaneously.

  2. #477
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    You have a point?
    thnx Capt. Chuck Shunstrom

    A few people feel the rain. Most people just get wet.

  3. #478
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    Quote Originally Posted by wooley12 View Post
    You have a point?
    Yeah, it was clearly stated.
    It was a criticism of the point of view that drug addiction is either a disease or a moral failing. My criticism is/was that characterizing "moral failure" and "disease" as mutually exclusive to one another is overly simplistic to the point of being wholly inapplicable to most addiction scenarios.

  4. #479
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mofro261 View Post

    Less homeless in 2018 than in 2017 https://www.kuow.org/stories/new-one...than-last-year
    Good, problem solved! Back to skiing... Seriously, though, one data point does not a trend make. Let's see if it holds. Hope it does but I'm not sold on it for future results.

    As for people being dumped into Seattle, the same thing happens in Spokane. Our city is asking the contributing communities to, you know, actually contribute financially to help offset the cost of shelter and services. Those communities don't have the resources to provide services so they ship the people to Spokane but without any financial consideration. We'll see if they step up.

  5. #480
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    ship em back to Pullman
    bF
    Alpental Indigenous

  6. #481
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    I feel like it's getting worse in Bellingham.

    At least more incidents of craziness.

    I feel like it's inhumane to just let someone freak out in public for hours on end.

    There was a guy that lived between Safeway and the bus shelter for 3 days. Out on the open.

    Elderly people unable to get up off benches, but dont have anywhere to go, anyways.

    It's sad and its sick and I dont have a solution.

    At least it's in the open. People have to see it. It's part of us.

  7. #482
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    When I am in a good mood, I do believe in housing 1st for all. Surely there is a way housing could be built for say $50k a unit. Ya, it isn't in the best area, as it was built in a closed factory or ?, but with a place to stay and bath, the rest does come easier. Counseling, trade training and transportation would also need to be provided. A previous post mention a cost of $90k a year. I think we could cover all I mentioned for that price. It ain't the Ritz, but you can take it or GTFO of town. People living on the streets is not acceptable in my sheltered world.
    Quote Originally Posted by leroy jenkins View Post
    I think you'd have an easier time understanding people if you remembered that 80% of them are fucking morons.
    That is why I like dogs, more than most people.

  8. #483
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    Let’s say you build all that housing.

    Then you have somebody screaming all night throwing turds at the neighbors...
    Then you have another leaving dirty aids needles everywhere.
    You have another passing out on the doorstep because she can’t afford insulin.


    Housing is almost tangential. It’s symptomatic of our systems that value human life only as that life relates to the profitability of business ventures, systems that discard people who are not profitable.

  9. #484
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    Quote Originally Posted by liv2ski View Post
    When I am in a good mood, I do believe in housing 1st for all. Surely there is a way housing could be built for say $50k a unit. Ya, it isn't in the best area, as it was built in a closed factory or ?, but with a place to stay and bath, the rest does come easier. Counseling, trade training and transportation would also need to be provided. A previous post mention a cost of $90k a year. I think we could cover all I mentioned for that price. It ain't the Ritz, but you can take it or GTFO of town. People living on the streets is not acceptable in my sheltered world.
    This reminds me of the news stories coming out of New York, Chicago, Detroit, and other areas with tenement housing in the 1960's and beyond where people lived for greatly reduced or free rent. The Projects or other such developments were trashed (no pride of ownership or care for the property) and filled with drugs, rape, crime, gangs and any other anti-social trait you might expect in a slum environment. Obviously, many of those same traits continue today in those neighborhoods. Is that better than having these same people homeless altogether? I don't know but it's not treating the base problems, it's putting band aids over symptoms. We've been trying to treat this issue for over a century and haven't found 'the answer'. I don't know that public housing is the answer as it seems to have mixed results, at best and the same problems persist today.

    In Spokane, the idea is seemingly to concentrate all this housing in the downtown core area along with the services. The result is a concentration of public urination, panhandling, petty crime, drug dealing, sidewalk sleeping during the day, and every other thing you might expect with this population. Spokane is in danger of what Detroit experienced with their 'white flight' and abandonment of the city's commerce core. Without that, the funding for these efforts dries up as businesses move out of the taxing jurisdiction and the city's core gets overrun with blight.

    I don't know the answer but it just seems we continue to repeat what should have been lessons from our history. And it seems we're bent on trying to treat the symptoms after the fact rather than intervening early on when a different outcome might have some impact on the overall problem. It's disheartening in how we're trying to deal with this currently.

    ETA: An interesting article regarding the concentration of public housing. https://www.theatlantic.com/business...-slums/400832/
    Last edited by GoldMember; 05-14-2019 at 10:10 AM.

  10. #485
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    This is overpopulation. If there was an unsettled, unclaimed area with a temperate climate, good water, fertile soil...and that news got out, it would be totally overrun immediately. All this is just outgrowth of how squeezed-together and stressed and harsh life has become with 7billion of us and every fertile hospitable place on earth under human ownership and control.


    2 of the most devastating realizations of my life:
    1) there’s nowhere to escape government in the modern world
    2) because I value my life too much to spend it governing, the nature of any government is that it consists of people with vastly different values than me...

    So there’s no place where I won’t be under the control of some power-hungry fuckwits. It’s one of the most suicidal-tendency-inducing thoughts I have.

    If there existed some place for people who aren’t profitable to just go live day to day and catch fish and forage for mangos or whatever, this whole situation would be moot. It’s because the world is now completely built-out and over-capacity that we’re in this mess.

  11. #486
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    I really can't argue that. That's why I decided when I was 18 that I didn't want kids. We're growing at an unsustainable pace and I didn't want to contribute to that. I might add, if you want to be 'green', don't have kids. I didn't want to have to worry about the world my kids would be left when I was gone and I didn't want to contribute to what, I believe, will be the ultimate demise of humankind.

    Here's a good article that illustrates the point. https://www.theguardian.com/environm...fewer-children

    Also, a graphic from that article:


  12. #487
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    Quote Originally Posted by ill-advised strategy View Post
    2 of the most devastating realizations of my life:
    1) thereís nowhere to escape government in the modern world
    2) because I value my life too much to spend it governing, the nature of any government is that it consists of people with vastly different values than me...

    So thereís no place where I wonít be under the control of some power-hungry fuckwits. Itís one of the most suicidal-tendency-inducing thoughts I have.

    If there existed some place for people who arenít profitable to just go live day to day and catch fish and forage for mangos or whatever, this whole situation would be moot. Itís because the world is now completely built-out and over-capacity that weíre in this mess.
    Unless you're relatively wealthy you really can't "opt out" of the modern condition, and even then only partially so. The unspoken reality that our society would cease to function if we didn't lock up the food is fairly disturbing when viewed from a sober detached perspective.

  13. #488
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    Quote Originally Posted by ill-advised strategy View Post
    This is overpopulation.
    Seattle's homeless problem really has nothing to do with "overpopulation" or fertile earth.

    It's is the inevitable outcome of there being no mental health care system in this country (thanks Reagan), ever increasing income inequality (pressure on working & middle class), health care costs, the financial collapse, the opioid crisis and the local economic pressures Seattle's current boom is placing on the city.

    Combined with Seattle's ineffectual city leadership.
    Quote Originally Posted by Downbound Train View Post
    And there will come a day when our ancestors look back...........

  14. #489
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    Quote Originally Posted by liv2ski View Post
    When I am in a good mood, I do believe in housing 1st for all. Surely there is a way housing could be built for say $50k a unit. Ya, it isn't in the best area, as it was built in a closed factory or ?, but with a place to stay and bath, the rest does come easier. Counseling, trade training and transportation would also need to be provided. A previous post mention a cost of $90k a year. I think we could cover all I mentioned for that price. It ain't the Ritz, but you can take it or GTFO of town. People living on the streets is not acceptable in my sheltered world.
    This already exists and it is called a trailer park. Not sure that solution works.
    Live Free or Die

  15. #490
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    Quote Originally Posted by PNWbrit View Post
    Seattle's homeless problem really has nothing to do with "overpopulation" or fertile earth.

    It's is the inevitable outcome of there being no mental health care system in this country (thanks Reagan), ever increasing income inequality (pressure on working & middle class), health care costs, the financial collapse, the opioid crisis and the local economic pressures Seattle's current boom is placing on the city.

    Combined with Seattle's ineffectual city leadership.
    This pretty much sums up Vancouver too, toss in temperate climate and that about covers it.

  16. #491
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    Quote Originally Posted by ill-advised strategy View Post
    Letís say you build all that housing.

    Then you have somebody screaming all night throwing turds at the neighbors...
    Then you have another leaving dirty aids needles everywhere.
    You have another passing out on the doorstep because she canít afford insulin.


    Housing is almost tangential. Itís symptomatic of our systems that value human life only as that life relates to the profitability of business ventures, systems that discard people who are not profitable.
    I would advocate for "levels" of public housing along with mental health treatment, addiction treatment, medical care and job training.

    The lowest level would be shitty. People who cant be decent neighbors get to be there, or in residential treatment. Maybe a dormitory type set up.

    I would even support a regulated and patrolled "camping" area with bathrooms and showers. This way, its away from our watersheds and parks.

    You have to give people somewhere to be.

    Get your shit together a bit and get a crappy apartment. Getting shit together could include attending dr. appointments, counceling sessions, not getting it trouble with police, transit, etc.

    Then, maybe a program that puts people in units around town. Maybe private apartment buildings could be encouraged to provide a unit or two in exchange for tax breaks.. these people could be working towards self sufficiency.

    These housing units would be spread out around town so not to create "ghettos".

    The problem I see with our homeless is that you have a ton of people with nothing to lose who dont give a fuck. You cant fine them because they cant pay. They have nothing. The jail is full, but even if it wasn't, it's not that bad.

    What if they could get a shitty dorm type room with cafeteria meals where they would be assessed and put on an improvement plan. If they follow through, go to appointments, dont get in trouble, maybe they get a little bit of money every week and can work towards moving to an apartment.

  17. #492
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdironRider View Post
    This already exists and it is called a trailer park. Not sure that solution works.
    The homeless cannot afford trailer parks.

  18. #493
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtngirl79 View Post
    The homeless cannot afford trailer parks.
    If Seattle is spending an average of $91,000 per year per homeless person (including kids who are with single mothers, i.e. $273,000/year for that family unit), I would think there would be a way to find housing in a trailer park... Where is the money really going?

  19. #494
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldMember View Post
    If Seattle is spending an average of $91,000 per year per homeless person (including kids who are with single mothers, i.e. $273,000/year for that family unit), I would think there would be a way to find housing in a trailer park... Where is the money really going?
    That has already been thoroughly explained earlier in the thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Downbound Train View Post
    And there will come a day when our ancestors look back...........

  20. #495
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    Quote Originally Posted by ill-advised strategy View Post
    Letís say you build all that housing.

    Then you have somebody screaming all night throwing turds at the neighbors...
    Then you have another leaving dirty aids needles everywhere.
    You have another passing out on the doorstep because she canít afford insulin.


    Housing is almost tangential. Itís symptomatic of our systems that value human life only as that life relates to the profitability of business ventures, systems that discard people who are not profitable.
    It's a whole lot easier to treat the addiction, mental health issue, or medical issue when that person has a place to live. Underlying issues will need to be addressed but not having to track them down living on the streets makes it easier and improves chances for positive change.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using TGR Forums mobile app

  21. #496
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    The issue is misconstrued as a housing issue.

    It's an addiction and mental health issue in an environment where there's no fucking hope to escape the rat race. There's no mechanism to show people how to climb out of it.
    Merde De Glace On the Freak When Ski
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  22. #497
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  23. #498
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    Quote Originally Posted by PNWbrit View Post
    That has already been thoroughly explained earlier in the thread.
    Umm....not really. From the Journal article:

    "But Seattle is trying something new. For the first time, nonprofits have to prove their work is helping. The goal is to bring accountability to a sprawling system with little oversight."

    "Nearly three-quarters-of-a-billion dollars is flowing through the region’s nonprofits to tackle the homelessness crisis — but it’s unclear who is in charge of overseeing those funds and measuring the return on investment."

    Those two statements kind of address my point; you're throwing money at the problem in a haphazard fashion with no means of actual oversight or measure of effectiveness. It's a scatter-gun approach lacking overall planning and coordination. How much do you really know of the efforts being made?

    How much do the directors and their staff make? How much overhead do their organizations carry compared to other industry standards? Are they satisfactorily achieving results? Is this a homeless equivalent to the military-industrial complex? How many jobs depend on people remaining homeless? Dark questions but it seems they've not been addressed in the past. It now sounds like there will be greater accountability, based on the first quoted statement but it begs the question of how much was wasted in past years without gaining ground.

  24. #499
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldMember View Post
    If Seattle is spending an average of $91,000 per year per homeless person (including kids who are with single mothers, i.e. $273,000/year for that family unit), I would think there would be a way to find housing in a trailer park... Where is the money really going?

    where are you getting 91K from, a recent colonoscopy?
    Move upside and let the man go through...

  25. #500
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buster Highmen View Post
    The issue is misconstrued as a housing issue.

    It's an addiction and mental health issue in an environment where there's no fucking hope to escape the rat race. There's no mechanism to show people how to climb out of it.
    I feel like a lot of people have no concept.

    Go walk around a homeless encampment. Ride a bus. Look around at those people and tell them to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

    Think about it.

    How will they do it?

    It's hard to find a 1 bedroom apartment here for under 1000 dollars a month.

    First last and deposit... that's 3000 dollars.

    Minimum wage is 12 dollars an hour.

    That's 250 hours not counting taxes.. or over six weeks of work.

    So this person, living in the street with various mental, physical and addiction issues is suppose to get it together?

    It's ridiculous. It's nearly impossible.

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