Seattle is dying

[Yonder_River]

So?

We're talking about SF (and Seattle) where booming property markets and gentrification are a large reason for the homelessness crisis. Maybe any hit they suffer is fair?

And in the meantime the non-sheltered homelessness doesn't hit the value?

Seems like they're wanting both sides of the argument.

Making them someone else's problem because their properties aren't worth as much or aren't as disneyfied isn't an answer.

Do you live in Seattle or the burbs?

[Buster Highmen]

As the KOMO report alludes, this is more of a mental health and drug addiction issue, hence enforcement issue, than a housing issue.
I live in the sticks just W. of the Snoqualmie River. Does that invalidate my observation? Left Ballard in 94 when the Backstage was still happening.

One of the most illuminating things I've read recently was in G. Wests book, SCALE, where he observes that urban growth increases the cost of social services, it's superlinear, not sublinear as the developers and Amazon would have us believe. The hardhats chanting about the headtax were wrong: urban growth results in a greater cost of living, not less.

No one wants to have a mental health or housing facility in their neighb. Simple. Another reason why outpatient clinics are good: they distribute their clients among existing housing.

I still think Amazon should have some sort of B&O tax in lieu of G. Wests observations.

[PNWbrit]

Do you live in Seattle or the burbs?

The burbs, Issaquah... which also has big homelessness and heroin problem. Apparently it's an attractive lifestyle compared to downtown homeless. I work downtown.

There's a small tent city by near exit 15. Close to where the vast new condo developments are going up between the freeway and Newport Way.

Why?

[char_]

So?

We're talking about SF (and Seattle) where booming property markets and gentrification are a large reason for the homelessness crisis. Maybe any hit they suffer is fair?

And in the meantime the non-sheltered homelessness doesn't hit the value?

Seems like they're wanting both sides of the argument.

Making them someone else's problem because their properties aren't worth as much or aren't as disneyfied isn't an answer.

Whoa whoa whoa there buddy, this is America. We can't be having any sort of conversation about holding companies or individuals accountable for costs they are currently externalizing.

[Buster Highmen]

Whoa whoa whoa there buddy, this is America. We can't be having any sort of conversation about holding companies or individuals accountable for costs they are currently externalizing.

The problem is that developing a housing, incarceration or mental health facility will impact people who are not deriving any benefit from the entities that are causing the problem. The greedy developer will loom large complete with mustache, muahahahah, but what about the hundreds of affected homeowners in the neighborhood?

That's different from a B&O tax on Amazon or google or msft.

[iceman]

Whoa whoa whoa there buddy, this is America. We can't be having any sort of conversation about holding companies or individuals accountable for costs they are currently externalizing.

But on the other hand we've seen a lot of talk (and legal action) in the area of Regulatory Taking and this begins to edge into that it seems to me. If the city deems it worth going to court for, well then good for them. But I can see why some property owners might feel they have a complaint.

[dunfree]

I'm not sure Austin is 100% wrong. Yeah there's a societal obligation to help those in need but would a shelter there fit the current zoning?

who gives a shit about zoning? call it a "free airbnb".

people only see the externalized costs if it directly costs them.

[PNWbrit]

But on the other hand we've seen a lot of talk (and legal action) in the area of Regulatory Taking and this begins to edge into that it seems to me. If the city deems it worth going to court for, well then good for them.

A homeless shelter knocks my property boom values a little isn't really Regulatory Taking.

But I can see why some property owners might feel they have a complaint.

"We hoped the homeless would move of their own free will after we made the Embarcadero so nice, why can't they be someone else's problem now?

[Meathelmet]

I haven't been to Ogden, is it like Provo?

Oh for fucks sake! Ogden is like -5 ( = 1 Ogden) that is like... -3/4 Provo?

Wait...it’s not Londonberry?? Or is that in NH??

Now gentlemen : LONDONDERRY!

[iceman]

No that's Derry.

[AK47bp]

Stumbled across this below - wow I had no idea. (Disclaimer: I have never been to Seattle although it is on my "short list" of places to visit.) Is this story exaggerated?

https://komonews.com/news/local/komo...I12Zcu9JrFWV3A

Just had a chance to watch. Pretty appalling

[DBdude]

No that's Derry.

Exactly


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[Meathelmet]

I haven't been to Ogden, is it like Provo?

No that's Derry.

But why the London thing then?

#I'llstophere

[PNWbrit]

Pretty appalling

Watch the section of Michael Moore's film Apocalypse 11/9 about Flint and the water scandal. Put aside any biases about him you may have because it's a masterful and passionate telling of a city actually dying.

Once again Seattle isn't dying.

But why the London thing then?

Because of King James the 1st. King of England 1603-1625

Who was Scottish.

[Brock Landers]

Jesus Christ

But sort of to Ice’s point. I don’t know if he would agree because whatever. But if you sell this land. And promise this land and do whatever (I’m no Seattle local or expert or honk clearly)...at what point is is a sale of shit goods or an eminent domain story that would probably fire up half the country.

[ridinshockgun]

I saw that story last week and said it's just click bait and moved on because Im so tired of the complaining around here....its only one of the best places in the world to live IMO. At least the region is. Then I saw this thread...whoah. I started watching it and I'll save it to watch later.

And I really like Seattle, but I'm just a southern transplant that's contributing to the growth and traffic problem, the same problem everyone in the city I left was complaining about. So I'll call it even. But in 37 years I've never been as happy as I have been since I moved here 4 years ago. I have no idea what Seattle was 30 years ago but it surely isnt dead.

[AK47bp]

Seattle isn’t dead or dying by any means, quite the opposite. It’s getting full and the fringes are filling in.

The ugly shit fringes.

The Seattle police being neutered by the city council at the same time is creating a perfect storm.

[steff]

the homeless prefer to be called outdoorsmen.

[Bobby Stainless]

At least there is legal pot...

[ill-advised strategy]

One day I was driving our "on demand" door-to-door bus service. I was dropping some regular passengers off at their home at the corner of a side street and a main street. Along the main street I noticed a (rare in my region) black guy backpacking along, staring at the bus. I've done this job quite a while now, and I know that stare tends to mean somebody is hoping to get on the bus.....I was at the end of my shift and wanted to help, so I hung out until he got close and asked if he needed a lift.

We talked about bus routes and fares and where he was going and whatnot, and I just said "hey man, I'll get the fare, lemme just give you a lift, I'm going that way to the bus garage anyway."

So he gets on.... he's like, clearly not from anywhere near here, he's immediately talking about how everyone here is super racist and staring at him and calling the police. I try to explain that when I moved back here I noticed that everyone stares at everyone and there's just a lot of police and it's all probably kind of a coincidence because that's just kind of how this town is, but also there are some racist people too. He wasn't hearing it. He asked me what I thought of his backpack, I said I'd have to take a closer look when we were parked. We hit a red light and I was trying to look at his pack to see if it was something awesome....and he flipped out "DON'T TOUCH MY SHIT MAN"....
Alright, looks like a nice pack. Sweet.
He's telling me about how he has serious hiking problems with his shitty boots. I'm thinking, basically....ugh....I bet some hick douche yelled some awful racist stuff at this poor guy and somebody else called the police on him and he's totally on edge here, maybe I can intervene and try to get him in a better state of mind to safely gtfo and on his way. I ask him about his shoe size and ask if he'd like to try one of my pairs of wildland fire boots, I have a pair in my truck just in case I need to go for a long hike, or there's a disaster or something when I'm out in the world, and I haven't used them in years, and I figured this would be a worthy situation to move them along. I tried to figure out where he was from and how he ended up here, didn't get much except suspicion back toward me for asking.

Dropped him at Walmart with the short bus, told him I'd swing past with my pickup truck and we could try those boots out. I go finish my shift and swing back there 30 minutes later. I find him hiking westward trying to hitchhike in a place where he will absolutely not get a ride.

He looks at the boots, which are exactly what he needs, and he's like "those suck, I don't want those". I'm subtly relieved, I get to keep my stuff. I decide, let's get this guy out to the 2-lane highway where he can better catch a ride, it's mid-day, it's been a long work shift from 4am to noon, I'm going to buy this guy lunch up at my favorite restaurant near the ski hall of fame.

So he loads up in the truck and we head up there. He's paranoid, he's accusing me of being a cop. I'm like, really? What kind of cop drives a bus in a bus uniform? You saw me, I was dropping off passengers when you first saw me, was that some elaborate ruse? Come on man.

We get up there and he refuses to come inside and eat. I'm like "shit man, come on, have lunch, wtf". Nope, he stomps off pissed off about this racist cop (me) messing with him.

I say fuck it, and go inside to have lunch anyway. It's an Italian bodega with a little diner area, I sit down and order from the nice lady. I'm sitting there looking at my phone, feeling like shit, when dude comes inside....I'm thinking, "hey, nice, maybe he'll come eat after all"....nope. He immediately starts an argument with some random rural Michigan guy totally minding his own business. "what are you looking at, never seen a black man?"
Guy is totally dumbstruck, like...."uh, I got no problem with you guy, take it easy"....
He's frothing now, ranting about racism and police....he's been indoors 45 seconds and it's just a tornado of crazy.
The old, round Italians come out from the back trying to figure what's going on and sort it out.

I'm doing this calculus about all this:
-what is my responsibility to intervene here?
-Is all this my fault? Probably my fault.

I cowardly decide to quietly observe instead of claiming this situation and trying to unwind this guy. I am ready to go if there's an actual fight. I'm especially determined to make sure nothing happens to the nice ladies who work in this place. There's a lot of screaming, the little round Itallians call the police. I feel like the old man is going to have a stroke. This is going to spawn racist stuff with all the people involved. The guy stomps out the door, across the busy highway toward the ski hall of fame, the police show up.

My salad shows up. I just eat it quietly. The nice waitress apologizes for the commotion. I cowardly fail to admit my role in all this.

I have a 45 minute drive home to think about how I can't help. How stupid my efforts were. I made everything so much worse. This guy was worse off, probably going to jail in some white shithole, just like he had feared so much, the little restaurant I love so much was just in shock....the little Italians probably felt like shit for hours, at a minimum. My truck smelled awful.

It was the world screaming at me
YOUR HELP JUST MADE THINGS SO MUCH WORSE!
YOU CAN'T HELP. STOP TRYING TO HELP.
Now it just whispers
you can't help. stop trying to help

you can't help. stop trying to help

you can't help. stop trying to help

your help just makes things worse

you can't help. stop trying to help

you can't help, stop trying to help

your help just makes it worse

you can't help

[iceman]

Intention is everything. It's not always gonna work out. It may not often work out. Or even ever. But don't stop caring. That's what goes to the plus side of the ledger. It's the power that turns the wheel.

[jono]

Intention is everything. It's not always gonna work out. It may not often work out. Or even ever. But don't stop caring. That's what goes to the plus side of the ledger. It's the power that turns the wheel.

+1. Some of your better work in this thread, Yeti. Worthwhile reads even if only to be reminded that the truth doesn't arrive conveniently packaged to fit one preconceived notion or the other. Thanks!

[Buster Highmen]

Everything matters, so good on you yeti, don’t let the dents slow down good heart

[Yonder_River]

The burbs, Issaquah... which also has big homelessness and heroin problem. Apparently it's an attractive lifestyle compared to downtown homeless. I work downtown.

There's a small tent city by near exit 15. Close to where the vast new condo developments are going up between the freeway and Newport Way.

Why?

I think it's a bit easier to get righteous about nimbyism when you live in a suburb and it doesn't affect your immediate home. I had a suspicion you didn't live in the city and I was right.

Comparing Issaquah to Seattle...really?

[MontuckyFried]

One day I was driving our "on demand" door-to-door bus service. I was dropping some regular passengers off at their home at the corner of a side street and a main street. Along the main street I noticed a (rare in my region) black guy backpacking along, staring at the bus. I've done this job quite a while now, and I know that stare tends to mean somebody is hoping to get on the bus.....I was at the end of my shift and wanted to help, so I hung out until he got close and asked if he needed a lift.

We talked about bus routes and fares and where he was going and whatnot, and I just said "hey man, I'll get the fare, lemme just give you a lift, I'm going that way to the bus garage anyway."

So he gets on.... he's like, clearly not from anywhere near here, he's immediately talking about how everyone here is super racist and staring at him and calling the police. I try to explain that when I moved back here I noticed that everyone stares at everyone and there's just a lot of police and it's all probably kind of a coincidence because that's just kind of how this town is, but also there are some racist people too. He wasn't hearing it. He asked me what I thought of his backpack, I said I'd have to take a closer look when we were parked. We hit a red light and I was trying to look at his pack to see if it was something awesome....and he flipped out "DON'T TOUCH MY SHIT MAN"....
Alright, looks like a nice pack. Sweet.
He's telling me about how he has serious hiking problems with his shitty boots. I'm thinking, basically....ugh....I bet some hick douche yelled some awful racist stuff at this poor guy and somebody else called the police on him and he's totally on edge here, maybe I can intervene and try to get him in a better state of mind to safely gtfo and on his way. I ask him about his shoe size and ask if he'd like to try one of my pairs of wildland fire boots, I have a pair in my truck just in case I need to go for a long hike, or there's a disaster or something when I'm out in the world, and I haven't used them in years, and I figured this would be a worthy situation to move them along. I tried to figure out where he was from and how he ended up here, didn't get much except suspicion back toward me for asking.

Dropped him at Walmart with the short bus, told him I'd swing past with my pickup truck and we could try those boots out. I go finish my shift and swing back there 30 minutes later. I find him hiking westward trying to hitchhike in a place where he will absolutely not get a ride.

He looks at the boots, which are exactly what he needs, and he's like "those suck, I don't want those". I'm subtly relieved, I get to keep my stuff. I decide, let's get this guy out to the 2-lane highway where he can better catch a ride, it's mid-day, it's been a long work shift from 4am to noon, I'm going to buy this guy lunch up at my favorite restaurant near the ski hall of fame.

So he loads up in the truck and we head up there. He's paranoid, he's accusing me of being a cop. I'm like, really? What kind of cop drives a bus in a bus uniform? You saw me, I was dropping off passengers when you first saw me, was that some elaborate ruse? Come on man.

We get up there and he refuses to come inside and eat. I'm like "shit man, come on, have lunch, wtf". Nope, he stomps off pissed off about this racist cop (me) messing with him.

I say fuck it, and go inside to have lunch anyway. It's an Italian bodega with a little diner area, I sit down and order from the nice lady. I'm sitting there looking at my phone, feeling like shit, when dude comes inside....I'm thinking, "hey, nice, maybe he'll come eat after all"....nope. He immediately starts an argument with some random rural Michigan guy totally minding his own business. "what are you looking at, never seen a black man?"
Guy is totally dumbstruck, like...."uh, I got no problem with you guy, take it easy"....
He's frothing now, ranting about racism and police....he's been indoors 45 seconds and it's just a tornado of crazy.
The old, round Italians come out from the back trying to figure what's going on and sort it out.

I'm doing this calculus about all this:
-what is my responsibility to intervene here?
-Is all this my fault? Probably my fault.

I cowardly decide to quietly observe instead of claiming this situation and trying to unwind this guy. I am ready to go if there's an actual fight. I'm especially determined to make sure nothing happens to the nice ladies who work in this place. There's a lot of screaming, the little round Itallians call the police. I feel like the old man is going to have a stroke. This is going to spawn racist stuff with all the people involved. The guy stomps out the door, across the busy highway toward the ski hall of fame, the police show up.

My salad shows up. I just eat it quietly. The nice waitress apologizes for the commotion. I cowardly fail to admit my role in all this.

I have a 45 minute drive home to think about how I can't help. How stupid my efforts were. I made everything so much worse. This guy was worse off, probably going to jail in some white shithole, just like he had feared so much, the little restaurant I love so much was just in shock....the little Italians probably felt like shit for hours, at a minimum. My truck smelled awful.

It was the world screaming at me
YOUR HELP JUST MADE THINGS SO MUCH WORSE!
YOU CAN'T HELP. STOP TRYING TO HELP.
Now it just whispers
you can't help. stop trying to help

you can't help. stop trying to help

you can't help. stop trying to help

your help just makes things worse

you can't help. stop trying to help

you can't help, stop trying to help

your help just makes it worse

you can't help

Wow. Good read. Even if it turned out in an unintended way, good on you for caring. Don't ever stop. I fully understand the frustration you felt, though. Been there. I hate how jaded I can be sometimes, but my life experiences are what brought me there, and I honestly internally struggle with. After being denied for my offers of help SO many times by homeless, it's tough not to become callous. Had a good talk with our church's pastor one evening recently about it, and he's helping me out with my attitude a lot. They have a pretty outstanding homeless outreach and it's a huge focus of the church. I need to get more involved.

That said, my view on it is that while we should continue to show love, mercy, and kindness toward many of them, we should ALSO have some basic levels of societal expectations, though. It's one thing to lend aid, to be kind, to feed them, to clothe them. It's another to just allow them to shoot up and do whatever they please, wherever they please. That's simply enabling and worsening their state of living if anything. It's the opposite of helping them live with at least SOME level of dignity. We have some work to do as a society, and I mean beyond simply throwing more money at the problem.

This guy did a fascinating video series about homelessness in Japan. It certainly exists there, but there's a certain tidiness and pride that still exists with their mentally ill and needy that is simply lacking here. Many chicken and egg factors they get into, but it's fascinating to examine the differences:



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