Eldora parents start petition for safety upgrades

[TBS]

OK, so how many people do you know that have fallen out of chairs?

[Danno]

OK, so how many people do you know that have fallen out of chairs?

Aside from the kid that this happened to that started the petition (who I don't know personally)? Well, I know of one accident at Eldora that happened after this (but was just a few feet, not 30'), and on the original newspaper article posted on facebook, there were a couple of people who commented about similar accidents (though obviously I know nothing about these people or what happened to them). And there was a viral story going around a few weeks ago about a kid who fell off a chair and some teens saved him by using that orange temp fencing stuff. And that's without the slightest bit of research. ETA: oh, and there was a woman that died two years ago at Granby Ranch.

Are you honestly trying to argue that people don't fall off chairlifts? We can argue about what the proper safety protocol should be, who should bear the risk, etc, but if the extent of your argument is "doesn't happen" I think you're pretty lost.

[Danno]

and with one quick google: https://www.coloradoan.com/story/spo...alls/79014918/

In Colorado, from the 2001-02 season to the 2011-12 ski season, the state reported 227 falls from chairlifts — Colorado requires its nearly 30 ski areas to report any falls from chairlifts, and the cause of the fall, to the Colorado Passenger Tramway Board.

And I guarantee that is nowhere near the total number of falls, because (for ex) the one I know about that happened recently was certainly not reported. Again, the argument is along the lines of "we don't need to regulate this given the cost of such regulation and how effective such regulation would be", NOT "this simply does not happen". People do fall from chairlifts and chairlifts can be made safer; how on earth could you argue otherwise? The debate is whether such safety measures would be effective and cost-effective.

[I've seen black diamonds!]

I remember a kid falling of a chair and possibly breaking his neck at Loon mountain sometime in the early/mid 80's. This was right before the unloading station. I took multiple rides on the beginner chair over the kid as they strapped him to a board. There was a blood stain on the snow that lasted all day.

I've been on chairs in Italy that have a bar that automatically lowers after you get on. The bars have lap guard to keep kids from sliding out that fold upward to accommodate adult legs. The bar automatically raises at the top when you are about 2 feet off the ground. Both loading and unloading areas are long and flat so any mishaps are unlikely to result in injury.

So yeah, lifts can be much safer.

Do I think we need lifts like this everywhere? Hell no. Do they have a place in some beginner areas? I reckon some particularly fearful parents would appreciate it. Surely such lifts are quite expensive though.

[Danno]

So yeah, lifts can be much safer.

Do I think we need lifts like this everywhere? Hell no. Do they have a place in some beginner areas? I reckon some particularly fearful parents would appreciate it. Surely such lifts are quite expensive though.

Exactly. Arguing that falls just don't happen, or "in my day we walked uphill both ways and we liked it so it should be good enough for these whiny whippersnappers" is just dumb.

[skiracer88_00]

Loveland currently (not just "back in my day") doesn't have a safety bar on their beginner lift. I had 4 kids learn to ski on that lift. No problems, and I have never heard of anyone falling off of that lift. Just teach your kid to sit back and not goof off. There is no reason anyone should fall off a chairlift...bar or not.

I remember seeing a study at some point that just as many kids fall off of lifts with bars than they do without bars.

I feel the same way about stop signs on school buses. Why cant we just teach our kids how to properly cross the f***ing street?

[BCMtnHound]

‘Back in the day’, the fixed grip doubles lifts were the safest part of sking. They routinely sent us 9yr olds down the slope on 200cm+, 70mm wide skis, with leashes and DIN set to 3. On blue man-made snow/ice. Night skiing. In jeans or whatever Mom decided was acceptable to get trashed. Without helmets.
Kids are so soft these days.

[Danno]

Loveland doesn't have a safety bar on their beginner lift. I had 4 kids learn to ski on that lift. No problems, and I have never heard of anyone falling off of that lift. Just teach your kid to sit back and not goof off. There is no reason anyone should fall off a chairlift...bar or not.

I remember seeing a study at some point that just as many kids fall off of lifts with bars than they do without bars.

I feel the same way about stop signs on school buses. Why cant we just teach our kids how to properly cross the f***ing street?

Since you have kids, surely you've noticed that kids do stupid shit sometimes, even when well taught not to do that stupid shit?

My kid ran into the street not long ago and almost got hit, even though we have always stressed street safety, looking both ways multiple times and continuing to do so while in the street, etc. But stuff momentarily clouded her brain and those safety circuits turned off at a bad time. I constantly stress chairlift safety to her, and tell her that there is never to be any horseplay on the lift, but that doesn't mean I have 100% confidence that she will never do something stupid.

I do agree that standard bars are not always the answer (though there are better setups that are probably more effective, but more difficult and expensive to implement). And I am not certain that there is any utility to forcing installation of safety bars. Though I do insist that my daughter use them if the chair has them.

But safety bars is just one issue; allowing 2 six year olds to ride the lift together (and in some cases, doing so without the parents knowledge or consent) is a bigger problem to me than safety bars.

[SumJongGuy]

My parents never skied and had no idea what the deal was with ski area protocol. They did purchase me a book of lesson tickets and dropped me off at the ski hill first time day after Christmas. I clicked in and headed straight for the first lift I saw, beginner lift. I was as small as a some 6 year olds. I didn't fall off, but did get chewed out and sent to the shop to buy safety straps. My self installed Salomon 202s didn't have them and nobody in the back yards and farm hills I'd been shredding up to that point told me I'd need safety straps at the resort.

Anyway, we can't assume parents will have a clue and we can't assume that liftees will know if the little kid they don't remember is competent to ride the lift or not.

FWIW, I did end up with a great instructor that week, college kid, fun times and learned a lot that week. Started in an intermediate group and held my own there once we got my gear sorted out, safety straps, crooked toe piece remounted (again by me).

[Kinnikinnick]

allowing 2 six year olds to ride the lift together (and in some cases, doing so without the parents knowledge or consent) is a bigger problem to me than safety bars.

Come on.

You think parents think that their kids are going to have instructors with them on every chairlift?

Even IF they could find enough adults just out skiing to ride with them, they’d likely be beginners themselves and not terribly good at managing themselves and a kid on the lift.



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[SumJongGuy]

Come on.

You think parents think that their kids are going to have instructors with them on every chairlift?

Even IF they could find enough adults just out skiing to ride with them, they’d likely be beginners themselves and not terribly good at managing themselves and a kid on the lift.

I don't know about the rest of folks here but I'd totally step up to ride with little kids in exchange for cutting lines on a powder day. Might not be that effective at the beginner lift but there are also little kids shredding elsewhere in lessons and on the race team.

[Danno]

Come on.

You think parents think that their kids are going to have instructors with them on every chairlift?

Even IF they could find enough adults just out skiing to ride with them, they’d likely be beginners themselves and not terribly good at managing themselves and a kid on the lift.

Yes, I do think many parents expect that kids will either have an instructor or an adult ride up with them. Whether that expectation is realistic or helpful (I doubt, for ex, that parents think about the fact that the adult might be a beginner) is another story entirely. But the reaction to what happened at Eldora demonstrated pretty well that many parents did not know that their kids were riding up a double chair with another kid, and no safety bar.

And FWIW, a beginner adult is still an adult. They may not be much use at loading or unloading, but they certainly would be useful at preventing unsafe goofing off mid-ride.

[jgb@etree]

OK, so how many people do you know that have fallen out of chairs?

Besides Benny Profane? None.

Edit to add: Any parent who doesn't realize that their kid in a group lesson will not be riding with an instructor/adult on the chairlift must not do much thinking. 1 instructor with 8+ kids, how exactly is that supposed to work? If you're not cool with that, buy a private lesson. Or better yet, ski with your own kid(s).

[Kinnikinnick]

Kids shouldn’t be riding up in cars to go skiing, THAT is clearly the most dangerous thing that happens to them.

I can think of at least one child that DIED while in a car coming back from skiing at Eldora. I’m starting a petition to STOP the reckless practice of kids riding in cars back and forth from Eldora.


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[TBS]

Danno, from that article, it sounds like going into the pit when loading, or biting it on the offload ramp, comprises the majority of the 227 incidents.

...most happening when getting on or off the chairlift.

That happens all the time and shouldn't count.

Last year I was right behind a mom and three peanuts (prolly 3-5YOs) loading a quad. Two of the kids got tangled up and despite the heroic efforts of the liftie, one of the kids fell into the pit. Chair stopped before skis left the snow. Peanut started whimpering, mom pointed down at him and said "Don't. Even. Start". He stopped, liftie hoisted him back on the chair and they were off.

I told mom when I saw her at the offload.

Couldn't find cross tabs for age of dismounters, so no idea how many incidents involved peanuts & groms. The ones at Mt Bachelor I'm aware of all involved teenagers and adults - all Snowboarders FWIW.

[MakersTeleMark]

Anyone know what happened with this one?

https://durangoherald.com/articles/197279

[Danno]

How we turned out is beside the point. Point is, we survived to adulthood despite lack of safety bars. Old Goat sez he only rode rope tows, and I rode mammoths up the hill in my earliest days, but I cannot remember anybody falling off a lift at Timberline, Ski Bowl or Mt Hood Meadows during my 40+ years skiing there. I did go around the bullwheel once hanging by my suspenders, but I was ~40 at the time. Sustained an Atomic Wedgie and a severe hematoma to the ego.

Show of hands - how many of y'all have either fallen out of a chair after it was more than 30 yards from the loading platform, or know someone who did?

OK, so how many people do you know that have fallen out of chairs?

So you went from implying it doesn't happen to

Danno, from that article, it sounds like going into the pit when loading, or biting it on the offload ramp, comprises the majority of the 227 incidents.

That happens all the time and shouldn't count.

now arguing that the majority of the 227 reported incidents in the past 10 years in Colorado alone shouldn't count.

I don't disagree, if we're talking "falling off the chairlift" then falling at loading or unloading doesn't really count. Although it's a fine line, because we both know that WAY more than 227 people fell at loading or unloading, so I suspect that the ones that get reported are more serious. As I noted earlier, one incident I know of was not reported and did not involve a fall of more than a few feet.

And the kid that started this all could have been classified in this report as related to loading, because reports are that she never properly loaded and was not fully on the chair and fell shortly thereafter (from maybe 30' up); it was an accident related to loading the chair. So we don't really know what each of these 227 incidents are unless we investigate more.

Regardless, I think it is pretty clear that people do fall off the chair, even if it never happened to you geezers and you never heard about it. Whether it happens often enough, or as the result of some failing of the ski resort, such that something should be done about it, is an entirely different question.

[Danno]

Kids shouldn’t be riding up in cars to go skiing, THAT is clearly the most dangerous thing that happens to them.

I can think of at least one child that DIED while in a car coming back from skiing at Eldora. I’m starting a petition to STOP the reckless practice of kids riding in cars back and forth from Eldora.


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Be as obnoxious and dismissive as you like. But if it was your kid that fell and got seriously injured you might think differently. Whether something should be done or not is a valid question, but that doesn't mean there are not legitimate safety questions to ask. And lord knows Eldora of all places should not get a pass when asking questions.

[AdironRider]

Lawyers ruin everything. Either buy the kid a private or realize there are more people in a lesson than just your special snowflake and they might not be coddled 100% of the time.

[Danno]

Anyone know what happened with this one?

https://durangoherald.com/articles/197279

googled, found nothing.

[EWG]

Ok, for what it's worth, my kids were never in lessons. They rode with parents or older friends till they were some age (can't remember exactly when, maybe 6-7?) then had free run of the mountain on their own. Honestly, we talked about not horsing around with them constantly, as they are high energy, but the group lesson thing never even occurred to me till now. I was more worried that something would happen with a group of friends.

I definitely remember kids falling off the lift at the little podunk areas we skied growing up. We laughed about it. I'd file that laughing under bullshit that was acceptable back then and shouldn't have been, and isn't now.

A quick search turned up lots of falls off of lifts in the last few years:
https://ftw.usatoday.com/2019/01/jun...-from-ski-lift
https://www.hudsonvalley360.com/arti...ndham-ski-lift
https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2016/1...g-vstan-fc.cnn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lZtFUX9OmU
https://gephardtdaily.com/breaking/f...de-chair-lift/
https://people.com/human-interest/te...from-ski-lift/
https://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/boy...video-28165535
https://www.ksl.com/article/46457587...n-weber-county

So, you know, it's a thing. Huh. I don't know what to think now. Maybe I'd file it under the kids' responsibility to not fuck up if they are good enough and old enough to ski without their parents? In a group lesson, that's different, I guess. Not sure what is appropriate. I mean, there is inherent risk in skiing. If the instructor doesn't protect the kid from another kid and they get taken out, did the area not protect the kid enough? What if they ski into a tree? Or get hit by some charging idiot?

I guess I'm not fully grasping the answer to where the line of care and protection is drawn. What's appropriate to assume the area does to protect the kid, and what's the reasonable level of risk a parent has to assume just dropping them off at a lesson?

[Danno]

Ok, for what it's worth, my kids were never in lessons. They rode with parents or older friends till they were some age (can't remember exactly when, maybe 6-7?) then had free run of the mountain on their own. Honestly, we talked about not horsing around with them constantly, as they are high energy, but the group lesson thing never even occurred to me till now. I was more worried that something would happen with a group of friends.

I definitely remember kids falling off the lift at the little podunk areas we skied growing up. We laughed about it. I'd file that laughing under bullshit that was acceptable back then and shouldn't have been, and isn't now.

A quick search turned up lots of falls off of lifts in the last few years:
https://ftw.usatoday.com/2019/01/jun...-from-ski-lift
https://www.hudsonvalley360.com/arti...ndham-ski-lift
https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2016/1...g-vstan-fc.cnn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lZtFUX9OmU
https://gephardtdaily.com/breaking/f...de-chair-lift/
https://people.com/human-interest/te...from-ski-lift/
https://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/boy...video-28165535
https://www.ksl.com/article/46457587...n-weber-county

So, you know, it's a thing. Huh. I don't know what to think now. Maybe I'd file it under the kids' responsibility to not fuck up if they are good enough and old enough to ski without their parents? In a group lesson, that's different, I guess. Not sure what is appropriate. I mean, there is inherent risk in skiing. If the instructor doesn't protect the kid from another kid and they get taken out, did the area not protect the kid enough? What if they ski into a tree? Or get hit by some charging idiot?

I guess I'm not fully grasping the answer to where the line of care and protection is drawn. What's appropriate to assume the area does to protect the kid, and what's the reasonable level of risk a parent has to assume just dropping them off at a lesson?

Good post.

Another problem here is that many parents had no idea this was going on. Which is easy to rectify, right? Just make sure that parents know it's a double chair with no bar and that kids may not ride up with an adult. Informed consent. And according to everyone here, the parents should all be cool with that because hey, that's skiing, right? Except the resort of course doesn't want to do this because it opens them up to lots of questions and (probably) significant lost revenue (because many parents are a little less laissez faire than the typical TGR parent). So they just don't mention it. Which is fine until something bad happens.

[Tippster]

I help the instructors out at Snowbird all the time and ride the lift with a kid - which I believe is their policy unless the kids are big enough to load themselves and their feet hit the foot rest.

It's usually fun as hell. They can't beat on each other if they're on opposite sides of you. Don't see what the problem is about requiring bars on lifts. Don't like it don't use it... unless there's a kid on the chair with you.

[MakersTeleMark]

I often get asked if a kid can tag along on my chair, and while you may think it's a dick move, I politely decline. I don't know if little jimmy is an autistic spaz, and being a dentist, I just have no desire to take on any responsibility for someone else's kids safety.

I'm there to ski, not to make sure your snowflake doesn't fall off or crash on unloading.

[Kinnikinnick]

Be as obnoxious and dismissive as you like. But if it was your kid that fell and got seriously injured you might think differently. Whether something should be done or not is a valid question, but that doesn't mean there are not legitimate safety questions to ask. And lord knows Eldora of all places should not get a pass when asking questions.

Well I taught my own kids to ski for the most part, so I’m not the target audience for lessons.

It sounds to me like nothing proposed would necessarily prevented this accident. MAYBE an adult could have caught her, but even that’s doubtful if she was never loaded correctly. Really it’s prob just a shitty lift op situation.

Some of the stuff they proposed like parents getting free tickets to ride with their kids are downright funny. What about the parents who don’t ski? So now they’ll be this pack of 6 kids, and instructor and 6 parents following them around.




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