Page 8 of 9 FirstFirst ... 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 LastLast
Results 176 to 200 of 220

Thread: 737 MAX

  1. #176
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    On Vacation for the Duration
    Posts
    11,218
    Getting weirder.

    https://www.seattletimes.com/busines...KvX4Xesd_AbbVs

    A former Boeing official who played a key role in the development of the 737 MAX has refused to provide documents sought by federal prosecutors investigating two fatal crashes of the jetliner, citing his Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination, according to a person familiar with the matter.
    A few people feel the rain. Most people just get wet.

  2. #177
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Posts
    50
    I'm now retired from Boeing (35 yr. career) but my last years there were on the 737 Programs and the Max. I had a senior position but not in Management and was involved in the Engineering world. The Max program was rushed and issues raised by many were not on the Program Managers radar. Lower-level Managers would deflect things and with knowledge that you threatened your own career by being too vocal, the program bumped along. The real experienced folks often were not listened to and many retired in disgust, some got demoted. So how did a single AOA sensor (rather than two with dual redundancy) get on those airplanes? Everything I was ever told or read made an emphasis on any system / apparatus having dual redundant capability. One fails, a second is in place to back it up. Faster, cheaper, and don't let anything obstruct or mess with our "Master Schedule". I could go on but in the years of the Max program some serious inside problems were festering and as some of my colleagues said, only a matter of time and there will be consequences. The video is an accurate, technical explanation but misses some of the behavior issues. I do remember the (senior) FAA reps. leaving and the assurances given that self-certification was perfectly fine. Yeah, right.
    Last edited by L82thegate; 09-07-2019 at 12:36 PM.

  3. #178
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    On Vacation for the Duration
    Posts
    11,218
    As Boeing goes, so goes the nation.

    In 1953, Charles Wilson, GM’s president, became President Dwight D. Eisenhower’s secretary of defense.
    A few people feel the rain. Most people just get wet.

  4. #179
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Posts
    50
    Just to add; a series of design reviews in packed conference rooms allow the entire design approach to be shared and critiqued by all other pertinent parties. Years ago, gruff and at times surly senior mangers would shoot arrows at anything they questioned or didn't understand. Different and more mechanical aircraft then but the practice is still in place. At the later event when 90% of the design is locked in, (Critical Design Review CDR) it would be appropriate to ask how a new system was "integrated" and were it's inputs fail-proof. Wouldn't someone in the room know you must have redundancy in the new MCAS system? Are there implications to the customers? Flight Manuals affected? and what about Simulators? Pilot / flight training considerations? There was a big hole in the experience / knowledge/ balls equation or it was a poorly attended event. The fly on the wall may know.

  5. #180
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Posts
    1,946
    Quote Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn View Post
    I don't think there are many commercial airports not fit for a 737. Takeoff run from one plane to another also is a lot more complicated than just wingspan from 1 to the other.
    Define "commercial".

  6. #181
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    On Vacation for the Duration
    Posts
    11,218
    Quote Originally Posted by L82thegate View Post
    ............ Years ago, gruff and at times surly senior mangers would shoot arrows at anything they questioned or didn't understand. Different and more mechanical aircraft then but the practice is still in place. .
    My educated guess is that years ago the surly managers were led by engineers. Educated guess is that today the MBA's and CFO's are the surly managers.

    Keep posting.
    A few people feel the rain. Most people just get wet.

  7. #182
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    9,300ft
    Posts
    17,695
    Can we talk about the Boeing 2707 vs the Lockheed 2000 now?
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  8. #183
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Missoula, MT
    Posts
    19,972
    That depends, how's your Airbus jargon?
    No longer stuck.

    Quote Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn View Post
    Just an uneducated guess.

  9. #184
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Moose, Iowa
    Posts
    5,831
    L1011 vs DC10. Before the slow bleeding out of the 747 and 787 they were the first victims of the big twin jets. I remember seeing the L1011's every time we passed through St Louis when it was a TWA hub but I never flew in one. Beautiful plane. DC10 had some serious design flaws and crazy crashes.

    https://medium.com/o530-carris-pt-he...i-6e9c36517248

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_...and_Flight_901

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

  10. #185
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    9,300ft
    Posts
    17,695
    L1011 was an amazing aircraft. Grandpa had a great amount of say in the design from his position at TWA. I have a promo model in twa livery. Poor engine choice
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  11. #186
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    truckee
    Posts
    10,811
    NYT discussion of the crashes, blaming the pilots more than Boeing.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/18/m...x-crashes.html

  12. #187
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Tech Bro Central
    Posts
    2,850
    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    NYT discussion of the crashes, blaming the pilots more than Boeing.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/18/m...x-crashes.html
    And here's the opposite point of view: https://newrepublic.com/article/1549...ial-revolution

  13. #188
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Posts
    1,946
    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    NYT discussion of the crashes, blaming the pilots more than Boeing.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/18/m...x-crashes.html
    commercial aviation has long thrived on the implicit subsidy of getting lots of government (military) trained pilots & techs who racked up tons of hours and lots of work - while getting paid - then migrated to the private sector where all of this experience was useful. now that the supply is dwindling commercial aviation isn't willing to commit to paying people to invest in said skills and whines about it - something de rigueur for late capitalism.

    Boeing went to Home Depot to buy bolts (because per reports dumbfucks in purchasing, not engineering, didn't realize specialized Ti fasteners aren't commoditys) to roll out the 787 prototype in a splashy affair over a decade ago. The die was cast - Wall Street and press optics uber alles. The 737 Max is the end result of bullshit over substance.

    I'd also say that Boeing management - heavily influence by stupid cunts from the midwest - came to view not just unions but workers as the problem. They thought really expensive complex machines were easy to build, while maintaing the doublethink that they were only one of two companys in the world capable of building them. Typical of the MBA dumbfuckery of the last 3 decades.

  14. #189
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    West Coast of the East Coast
    Posts
    6,503
    Quote Originally Posted by wooley12 View Post
    My educated guess is that years ago the surly managers were led by engineers. Educated guess is that today the MBA's and CFO's are the surly managers.

    Keep posting.
    Yup, just like almost any company that makes "things" these days. In the past, engineers, sales, people that understood the product or the market or both, generally were promoted to management. Now, the technical experts and the best salespeople want nothing to do with management, because it is a bullshit political mess that gets nothing done. So instead, we get people who have never designed, built, or effectively sold or marketed any of the products the company sells. They are only experts in the politics of management, shuffling shit downhill, and taking credit for anything they think will further their career.

  15. #190
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    17,981
    To be fair CEO Dennis Muilenberg has both a BS and MS in Aero Engineering. Boeing Commercial Airplanes CEO Kevin McAllister has a BS in Materials Engineering. These guys DO understand the technical side.

  16. #191
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    the ham
    Posts
    6,251
    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    NYT discussion of the crashes, blaming the pilots more than Boeing.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/18/m...x-crashes.html
    I'm reasonably certain that when you read a piece (journalism, not scientific / peer-reviewed) on anything medical-related you can tell whether or not the author knows what they're talking about within the first few paragraphs.

    Well, that guy is full of shit.

  17. #192
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    the ham
    Posts
    6,251
    Quote Originally Posted by dunfree View Post
    commercial aviation has long thrived on the implicit subsidy of getting lots of government (military) trained pilots & techs who racked up tons of hours and lots of work - while getting paid - then migrated to the private sector where all of this experience was useful. now that the supply is dwindling commercial aviation isn't willing to commit to paying people to invest in said skills and whines about it - something de rigueur for late capitalism.
    That's accurate. And it's not just that the airlines don't want to invest - they've lead the charge in a race to the bottom.

  18. #193
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    PDX
    Posts
    2,343
    Man, that New Republic piece is cray. People need to go to prison.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using TGR Forums mobile app

  19. #194
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Posts
    50
    Around 15, maybe more years ago Boeing made a fundamental shift in it's management candidate process. You didn't need to know the "business" aspects of a team, just have the (perceived) skill to manage people. Human Resources essentially went away and managers handled all the day-to-day matters and employee things. I spent a lot of my time educating new managers as to how processes worked but their focus was elsewhere. When we didn't maintain appropriate levels of experienced personnel, watched the retiring of all the experienced professionals, then hired a large number of fresh out of college newbies, the entire company was skill-diluted. Staying within your budget / meeting your schedule commitments became God. Safety, 5s activity, process improvement with questionable data and "claimed" savings (often inflated) and managers minding their career growth became the new "norm". Most folks still worked hard and diligently and truly cared about their work. But they didn't understand much and the politics in the office environment actually kept knowledge growth and critical thinking in check, to the point that anything you were told was fact and you did what management asked. Yes the managers who had zero to little industry knowledge, didn't question anything, and likely an un-related college degree behind them. Hope the last 5 years have improved some of that but wonder. Cultural revolution that took Boeing backwards in my and many other peoples opinions.

  20. #195
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    champlain valley
    Posts
    4,746
    Thread drift

    I flew a 737 - 800 last week and it was a very nice plane


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

  21. #196
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    truckee
    Posts
    10,811
    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
    I'm reasonably certain that when you read a piece (journalism, not scientific / peer-reviewed) on anything medical-related you can tell whether or not the author knows what they're talking about within the first few paragraphs.

    Well, that guy is full of shit.
    If you say so.

  22. #197
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    On Vacation for the Duration
    Posts
    11,218
    He lived it, dood. I've seen it a vendor in a few over mature tech fortune 100's. I know doctors are gods but.....
    A few people feel the rain. Most people just get wet.

  23. #198
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    The Bull City
    Posts
    4,271
    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    NYT discussion of the crashes, blaming the pilots more than Boeing.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/18/m...x-crashes.html
    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
    I'm reasonably certain that when you read a piece (journalism, not scientific / peer-reviewed) on anything medical-related you can tell whether or not the author knows what they're talking about within the first few paragraphs.

    Well, that guy is full of shit.
    Odd. A guy I went to school with and has been a life long Boeing engineer since the late 1980s, still works for Boeing, posted that article to his facebook page as accurate.. Here's exactly what he said..
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Boeing Opinion.jpg 
Views:	43 
Size:	215.5 KB 
ID:	294932
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Boeing Opinion.jpg 
Views:	34 
Size:	183.0 KB 
ID:	294931  
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  24. #199
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    On Vacation for the Duration
    Posts
    11,218
    NYT is blocking me. Here is the counter arguement.

    https://www.moonofalabama.org/2019/0...x-failure.html

    Without reading it, I suspect the truth is in the middle somewhere. Multiple causes are what causes a plane to crash. I get that from watching "Why Planes Crash".


    Since the '80's CEOs have a legal duty to make more profit first, period. And I'd wager that all the upper middle guys had MBA's (nttawwt) and dreams of Ivy League for their kids and a 3rd home as motivators when shit came down from the top.
    A few people feel the rain. Most people just get wet.

  25. #200
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Joisey
    Posts
    1,573
    Just seeing this now as I looked to book a flight Southwest out west to either Taos or Colorado and I see no flights are available. Will this be something that is resolved in the coming couple of months or is it likely that SW will not be flying there anytime this winter?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •