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Thread: 737 MAX

  1. #176
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    That depends, how's your Airbus jargon?
    No longer stuck.

    Quote Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn View Post
    Just an uneducated guess.

  2. #177
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    L1011 vs DC10. Before the slow bleeding out of the 747 and 787 they were the first victims of the big twin jets. I remember seeing the L1011's every time we passed through St Louis when it was a TWA hub but I never flew in one. Beautiful plane. DC10 had some serious design flaws and crazy crashes.

    https://medium.com/o530-carris-pt-he...i-6e9c36517248

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_...and_Flight_901

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

  3. #178
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    L1011 was an amazing aircraft. Grandpa had a great amount of say in the design from his position at TWA. I have a promo model in twa livery. Poor engine choice
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  4. #179
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    NYT discussion of the crashes, blaming the pilots more than Boeing.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/18/m...x-crashes.html

  5. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    NYT discussion of the crashes, blaming the pilots more than Boeing.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/18/m...x-crashes.html
    And here's the opposite point of view: https://newrepublic.com/article/1549...ial-revolution

  6. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    NYT discussion of the crashes, blaming the pilots more than Boeing.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/18/m...x-crashes.html
    commercial aviation has long thrived on the implicit subsidy of getting lots of government (military) trained pilots & techs who racked up tons of hours and lots of work - while getting paid - then migrated to the private sector where all of this experience was useful. now that the supply is dwindling commercial aviation isn't willing to commit to paying people to invest in said skills and whines about it - something de rigueur for late capitalism.

    Boeing went to Home Depot to buy bolts (because per reports dumbfucks in purchasing, not engineering, didn't realize specialized Ti fasteners aren't commoditys) to roll out the 787 prototype in a splashy affair over a decade ago. The die was cast - Wall Street and press optics uber alles. The 737 Max is the end result of bullshit over substance.

    I'd also say that Boeing management - heavily influence by stupid cunts from the midwest - came to view not just unions but workers as the problem. They thought really expensive complex machines were easy to build, while maintaing the doublethink that they were only one of two companys in the world capable of building them. Typical of the MBA dumbfuckery of the last 3 decades.

  7. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by wooley12 View Post
    My educated guess is that years ago the surly managers were led by engineers. Educated guess is that today the MBA's and CFO's are the surly managers.

    Keep posting.
    Yup, just like almost any company that makes "things" these days. In the past, engineers, sales, people that understood the product or the market or both, generally were promoted to management. Now, the technical experts and the best salespeople want nothing to do with management, because it is a bullshit political mess that gets nothing done. So instead, we get people who have never designed, built, or effectively sold or marketed any of the products the company sells. They are only experts in the politics of management, shuffling shit downhill, and taking credit for anything they think will further their career.

  8. #183
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    To be fair CEO Dennis Muilenberg has both a BS and MS in Aero Engineering. Boeing Commercial Airplanes CEO Kevin McAllister has a BS in Materials Engineering. These guys DO understand the technical side.

  9. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    NYT discussion of the crashes, blaming the pilots more than Boeing.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/18/m...x-crashes.html
    I'm reasonably certain that when you read a piece (journalism, not scientific / peer-reviewed) on anything medical-related you can tell whether or not the author knows what they're talking about within the first few paragraphs.

    Well, that guy is full of shit.

  10. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunfree View Post
    commercial aviation has long thrived on the implicit subsidy of getting lots of government (military) trained pilots & techs who racked up tons of hours and lots of work - while getting paid - then migrated to the private sector where all of this experience was useful. now that the supply is dwindling commercial aviation isn't willing to commit to paying people to invest in said skills and whines about it - something de rigueur for late capitalism.
    That's accurate. And it's not just that the airlines don't want to invest - they've lead the charge in a race to the bottom.

  11. #186
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    Man, that New Republic piece is cray. People need to go to prison.

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  12. #187
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    Around 15, maybe more years ago Boeing made a fundamental shift in it's management candidate process. You didn't need to know the "business" aspects of a team, just have the (perceived) skill to manage people. Human Resources essentially went away and managers handled all the day-to-day matters and employee things. I spent a lot of my time educating new managers as to how processes worked but their focus was elsewhere. When we didn't maintain appropriate levels of experienced personnel, watched the retiring of all the experienced professionals, then hired a large number of fresh out of college newbies, the entire company was skill-diluted. Staying within your budget / meeting your schedule commitments became God. Safety, 5s activity, process improvement with questionable data and "claimed" savings (often inflated) and managers minding their career growth became the new "norm". Most folks still worked hard and diligently and truly cared about their work. But they didn't understand much and the politics in the office environment actually kept knowledge growth and critical thinking in check, to the point that anything you were told was fact and you did what management asked. Yes the managers who had zero to little industry knowledge, didn't question anything, and likely an un-related college degree behind them. Hope the last 5 years have improved some of that but wonder. Cultural revolution that took Boeing backwards in my and many other peoples opinions.

  13. #188
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    Thread drift

    I flew a 737 - 800 last week and it was a very nice plane


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  14. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
    I'm reasonably certain that when you read a piece (journalism, not scientific / peer-reviewed) on anything medical-related you can tell whether or not the author knows what they're talking about within the first few paragraphs.

    Well, that guy is full of shit.
    If you say so.

  15. #190
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    He lived it, dood. I've seen it a vendor in a few over mature tech fortune 100's. I know doctors are gods but.....
    A few people feel the rain. Most people just get wet.

  16. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    NYT discussion of the crashes, blaming the pilots more than Boeing.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/18/m...x-crashes.html
    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
    I'm reasonably certain that when you read a piece (journalism, not scientific / peer-reviewed) on anything medical-related you can tell whether or not the author knows what they're talking about within the first few paragraphs.

    Well, that guy is full of shit.
    Odd. A guy I went to school with and has been a life long Boeing engineer since the late 1980s, still works for Boeing, posted that article to his facebook page as accurate.. Here's exactly what he said..
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    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  17. #192
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    NYT is blocking me. Here is the counter arguement.

    https://www.moonofalabama.org/2019/0...x-failure.html

    Without reading it, I suspect the truth is in the middle somewhere. Multiple causes are what causes a plane to crash. I get that from watching "Why Planes Crash".


    Since the '80's CEOs have a legal duty to make more profit first, period. And I'd wager that all the upper middle guys had MBA's (nttawwt) and dreams of Ivy League for their kids and a 3rd home as motivators when shit came down from the top.
    A few people feel the rain. Most people just get wet.

  18. #193
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    Just seeing this now as I looked to book a flight Southwest out west to either Taos or Colorado and I see no flights are available. Will this be something that is resolved in the coming couple of months or is it likely that SW will not be flying there anytime this winter?

  19. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    If you say so.
    Never heard of Gell-Mann amnesia?

  20. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by JongDoe View Post
    Just seeing this now as I looked to book a flight Southwest out west to either Taos or Colorado and I see no flights are available. Will this be something that is resolved in the coming couple of months or is it likely that SW will not be flying there anytime this winter?
    Where are you flying from? Denver is a hub for SW, they have a lot of flights there. They also fly to Albuquerque from a few places. They don't show Taos on their route map at all.

  21. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by wooley12 View Post
    NYT is blocking me. Here is the counter arguement.

    https://www.moonofalabama.org/2019/0...x-failure.html

    Without reading it, I suspect the truth is in the middle somewhere. Multiple causes are what causes a plane to crash. I get that from watching "Why Planes Crash".


    Since the '80's CEOs have a legal duty to make more profit first, period.
    That's what I thought but lately corporate ceo's have been saying otherwise. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/19/the-...objective.html
    And the SCOTUS as well https://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/ac...rporations.cfm

    What this comes down to is whether to blame the big evil greedy American corporation for cutting corners or the smaller greedy third world corporations for poor pilot hiring and training. Or the incompetent US govt agency. Or all of the above. Plenty of opportunities for self righteous indignation all around.

  22. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by iceman View Post
    Where are you flying from? Denver is a hub for SW, they have a lot of flights there. They also fly to Albuquerque from a few places. They don't show Taos on their route map at all.
    flying out of Newark and there are usually flights to ABQ and DIA, but the low fare calendar shows no flights available for months,

  23. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    If you say so.
    Yeah, I do. Because he is.

    Airmanship isn't learned from flying a Citabria off a grass strip on the weekends. Frankly, he doesn’t seem to know the meaning of the word.

    quote: An old truth in aviation is that no pilot crashes an airplane who has not previously dinged an airplane somehow.
    If I could raise one of my friends from the dead, he’d dick-punch that asshole.

    His musings on Airbus are also ridiculous, and clearly indicative of his lack of actual knowledge and experience. Except for the infinitesimal amount of time when the Airbus is ‘saving itself from the pilot’ it’s safe to assume it’s always plotting to kill you. Anyone who doesn’t believe that shouldn’t be flying it.

    In many ways, the 737 is a pussy cat compared to the bus.

    I’m not surprised that he was washed out of the industry at such a low level. An armchair quarterback who only played high school ball. 100% sour grapes.

    He gets the facts right, but they’ve all been covered before. The conjecture - which there is a lot of - is just that. And for all of his pontificating, he misses the actual point. It's not that those pilots fucked up, or the mechanics were lazy, or poorly trained, or the airlines and/or third world countries were corrupt...

    The point is that it’s called a chain of events for a reason. (or error chain in aviation parlance). And that chain starts with the manufacturer, runs through the regulatory body, the airline, the parts supplier, mechanics, ATC, airports, etc. etc., and ends with the captain. And this happens to be an example where pretty much everyone in that chain was culpable.

  24. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
    And this happens to be an example where pretty much everyone in that chain was culpable.
    Which is part of what makes this situation so scary.

  25. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
    The point is that it’s called a chain of events for a reason. (or error chain in aviation parlance). And that chain starts with the manufacturer, runs through the regulatory body, the airline, the parts supplier, mechanics, ATC, airports, etc. etc., and ends with the captain. And this happens to be an example where pretty much everyone in that chain was culpable.
    All of which he says in the article. He emphasizes the role the pilots played; the design issues with the airplane have been extensively covered elsewhere.

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