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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
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    1,424

    No tip dive touring skis

    I been touring for a long time on voile vectors. Lately, since I started skiing with the extra weight of an airbag, I had a few tomahawks because of tip dive. The sweet spot between tip dive and too much tail pressure is too narrow. I want a ski that I can trust to drive from a forward position without worrying about tip dive when I drop in a couloir, and deal with the breakable crust that comes along the way. It will be a dedicated touring ski with long days so weight matters. I am Around 150 lbs. Not looking to go in a straight line.

    Hoji - interesting ski, I like what I read about it. On the heavy side.
    Steeple - are they all the BGs are hyped to be?
    PraxisRX?

    What else?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Zurich, Switzerland
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    318
    check something with a classic/ further back mount point. I am not familiar with any ski you mentioned but I find skis designed for a modern, centered stance tend to tip dive more...

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Winthrop, WA. Methow valley
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    742
    Tip dive sucks dirty balls, one of the many reasons I've settled on BMT's (94's and 109's). Spendy but they work, even for a 220 lb'r like me. At 150 lb you should have a bunch of options, and like Leo said, look for something with a more rearward mount (e.g. Helio, BMT/VTA....add a bunch of others here)

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Posts
    178
    If you ‘refuse’ to have tip dive that’s why some people like the Wailer 112. Polarizing but well loved by some.

    A less common model, Prior Husume xtc. Pretty light, fairly far back mount with long rocker lines. Pretty ideal touring ski.

    The Hoji will float incredibly compared to your Voile’s but wants to get moving before it gets to the surface.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
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    1,505
    ...note: my preferred ski style in backcountry snow is full forward pressure/ball of foot driven/balanced turn initiation and consider tip dive to be a cardinal sin of any ski marketed for backcountry biased skiing.

    IMO/ime based on many years heli skiing and touring on the armada 185cm jj's, o.g. version and a few other designs such as the salomon qst 118, o.g. k2 darkside PRE custom tip bending modification, some custom skis with low profile tip splay/lots of taper but really fat 148mm waists, to a much lesser degree the salomon rocker 2 122, prolly a few more that I can't recall and a very recent report (yesterday) from a buddy on black crow new noctas who moved the mount point back 2cms with little relief and is gonna step it up to tip extenders to solve the problem:

    Modern closer to center mounted skis with tapered tips and with too little splay/curve towards the tip tend to dive. This isn't an exclusive domain of the more forward mount point skis though...my k2 darksides in stock form had horrible tip dive as well and they have a quite tradition rearward biased mount point. To fix them, i simply bent more splay into the shovel and pulled the rocker contact point back about 10cms.

    I've had multiple very violent tip dive incidents in snow conditions such as bottomless, deeper upside down and moister/stiffer slabby snow. In one particular incident (not on the jj's but a similar profile/design custom ski), the head first catapult into the snow resulted in a deep snow immersion with head buried a good 40cms below the surface, arms/legs/body cemented in the snow with arms extended down and locked into place...oh and with a mouth/airway full of snow. It took a good 20 long seconds, the longest 20 seconds of my life, in a full panic quiver/shake/twitch/twist to extricate my arms and clear my face of snow and cough up the snow/water in my airway...which was probably moments before a i lost consciousness. Stars and narrowed field of a what i recall to be a shrinking tunnel of view began to overcome my reality.

    Never again I said.

    So, I built 7cm tip extenders. Game Changers. Never had tip dive with the jj's again, and using the T.E.'s actually results in the skis feeling more balanced in a variety of snow conditions...not all, but most. In very moist, kinda stiffer deep coastal storm conditions they can push me back off the balls of feet a little bit...but, acceptable compromise for improved ski feel in most backcountry snow conditions.

    A few data points gleaned from experimenting with the jj's:

    1. moving the mount point back a full 2cms helped reduce tip dive by a meager lets say 20-25 percent...it still happened and some incidents were still the violent catapult over the tips.
    2. moving the mount point back further than 1cm kinda wrecked the dialed in sweet spot for all around skiing that the armada recommended mount point gave.
    3. moving the mount point back further than 1cm resulted in undesired 'wheelying out' effects while charging pillow lines and dropping airs
    4. bending more splay/curve into the shovels/tips (total of 15mm per ski) didn't really help much

    Just sayin'...if you really like your skis just slap some extenders on and see if that erases the tip dive issue. Might save the hassle and bux of looking for a new pair.

    Here's a few pics of a set i built for a buddy with 175cm JJ 2.0's. Initially he thought he'd use em just for the specific conditions requiring more tip float but he sez they've improved the ski enough in other conditions that he's left them on full time. One surprisingly unintended consequence for him was the skis didn't stab soft punchy moguls and other lumpy bumps which apparently was an issue before...I wouldn't know cause i don't ski inbounds much. For these skis, I made em 5cms long, mirrored the stock tip shape and slightly 'spooned' the contour of the edges...nice and forgiving turn initiation and no hook in crusts and slabby snow.

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    Master of mediocrity.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
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    land of the free
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    8,220
    DPS lotus 120

    very ball of foot skiing, I defy you to go over the handlebars
    “Life has become immeasurably better since I have been forced to stop taking it seriously.”
    Hunter S. Thompson

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
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    Quote Originally Posted by Core Shot View Post
    DPS lotus 120

    very ball of foot skiing, I defy you to go over the handlebars
    Buddy who complained about the new noctas spent the last 5 years or so on the lotus 120's. Reported the same 'no tip dive' performance.
    Master of mediocrity.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thomas View Post
    Tip dive sucks dirty balls, one of the many reasons I've settled on BMT's (94's and 109's). Spendy but they work, even for a 220 lb'r like me. At 150 lb you should have a bunch of options, and like Leo said, look for something with a more rearward mount (e.g. Helio, BMT/VTA....add a bunch of others here)
    This matches my experience with the BMT 109.
    And, I've got another 40lbs (less pack and equipment) on the OP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Core Shot View Post
    DPS lotus 120

    very ball of foot skiing, I defy you to go over the handlebars
    And, this...
    Also tour on the 120 pure, zero tip dive.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    northern BC
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    17,960
    Quote Originally Posted by Core Shot View Post
    DPS lotus 120

    very ball of foot skiing, I defy you to go over the handlebars
    This ^^ IME I could sink the tips on 112 wailers the old shinny top ones, I could purposely sink the tips but I could not sink the tips on my 2011 lotus 120's, at moderate speed lean WAAAAY forward to force tip dive and they just keep planing, almost idiot proof maybe its the 60cm of early rise?

    Or more likely cuz they are red

    I have them both in 184 & the 190 they are only 3 s/n apart but for some reason the 184 have 60cm of early rise but the 190 only have 50cm of early rise ... I like the 184's more
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    1,424
    I looked at your tip extenders thread and gave them serious consideration. I might make a pair. Still I want to play with a new ski.

    Dunno it could be this whole ball of foot driving vs forward driving. On breakable crust ball of foot driving doesn't really move the tail. I have to get the trails up with forward pressure. Same with heavy wet snow.

    Husume is a cool ski. Maybe I'll get a chance to demo it. Xtc is under 2kg so it could be a great choice.

    BMT 109 killer ski. Can't find any negatives on it. I think the so that I am looking for should be a fully rockered ski.

    Wailer, JJ, hated skiing both of these.

    Another ski that's interesting is the new bent chetler 120. Very light. Blister complained about their performance on firm inconsistent snow, but overall impressed.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    NAZ
    Posts
    475
    Do you like the Vectors otherwise? If so, I would look for a pair of Chargers, essentially the same ski with wider dimensions. They stopped making it but I'm sure you could find some around. I also am going to have a pair of SuperChargers with speed turns for sale soon too. A very similar ski, slightly more rockered and more sidecut, but from the same family as the Vectors.
    It sucks to suck.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Whistler, BC
    Posts
    1,324
    I fucking hate tip dive, and have gone through many powder skis since selling my Lotus 120’s to no avail.

    Finally sorted the situation by buying back my 120’s!

    Other ‘skinnier’ more touring friendly skis I have/had that don’t have top dive problems in no particular order-
    188 Husume
    184 Vwerks Katana (unreal ski)
    186 verks BMT

    Stay away from the Hoji, whatever you do. They are like a shit, unstable, tip diving version of the Katana imo. The shape is awesome, but the mount point is too far forward for an old school 190 pounder like me.


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Whelk View Post
    a more stupid motherfuck does not exist.
    Big Balls is worst asshat kind.
    kind that wear bukkake from above.
    with warm drown he gurgles final death, for one time not worried about his misplaced import known of african american social standing and prominent community members. for he is only drown, as is the way.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Park City
    Posts
    3,025
    Beg someone to sell you their kusala pure carbons. No tip dive and I had occasional problems w lotus 120 spoons.


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
    I rip the groomed on tele gear

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    1,505
    data point/may not be applicable:

    184 armada declivities and 186 rossi s3's are surprisingly floaty and resistant to tip dive within reason for the dimensions when mounted on the line.

    Headin' out for some heli turns to test out a new rearward mount for some old solly 180 rocker 2 122's...if I find love, might be my new allround winter touring setup. 20cms of low density fresh over somewhat punchy in spots 60cms of three day old storm snow...good test conditions.
    Master of mediocrity.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    1,424
    Vectors are great. I can't see the chargers to be a significant upgrade, though. If I could go back and trade the vectors for the chargers I would do it.

    I toured with a guy on spoons. Big spoons, forgot their size. He seemed to have a good time and know what he was doing. That's when I actually re-thought my whole set-up. Putting them on the short list.

    Kusala. Old legends, would love to try them. Doesen't look like I have much of a chance to get them.

    BMTs look like the main contender based on feedback and availability.

    What about the steeples...?

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by daught View Post
    What about the steeples...?
    This is a BG with a tour layup, no?
    If so, think centered stance/no tip drive/pressure (IME with the BG anyway).

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
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    northern BC
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    Quote Originally Posted by daught View Post
    Vectors are great. I can't see the chargers to be a significant upgrade, though. If I could go back and trade the vectors for the chargers I would do it.
    my buddy is telling me the Hyper versions of Voile are the money ?
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    whistler
    Posts
    965
    you want a pintail. Lotus 120 simply the most well known example.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    553
    When designing the my new skis - I went with a little bit more carbon in the tip.

    I haven't got a ton of testing on it yet - but it feels like it rises up onto the snow better and does not deflect when you compress into the snow at the initiation. I want it to float like a boat hull coming up on plane - not flex.

    It's a theory - but I wonder if the flex on the tips of some of these tip divy skis are a bit soft.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Winthrop, WA. Methow valley
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    742
    With all this talk of the Lotus 120's did I mention BMT 122's? It's the shit! Tragic that they quit making it as it was the perfect Japan ski. I just sold mine, but not because I didn't love them. If you tour on fatty's they are worth a look.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    1,424
    Dunno, maybe I don't need the most racer tip driving ski out there. I been having an overall good time, with few accidents, on 96 underfoot vectors. I must know what I am doing

    Didn't elan make some spooned big skis? What were they?

    I am not in a position to drop $1k on spoons or BMTs right now... anyone looking to sell some spoons or BMTs that need some love? There were some great deals I missed in gear swap.

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
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    Not Brooklyn
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    Came here to say: Lotus 120's.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
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    northern BC
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    what about the Praxis Rx ?

    the alpster ain't here so somebody had to say it
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
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    1,424
    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    what about the Praxis Rx ?

    the alpster ain't here so somebody had to say it
    I am not worthy.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    SLC
    Posts
    247
    Might be thread hijacking here, and it sounds like it isn't your ski anyway, but here are my experiences with the Hoji and tip dive. I mounted on the recommended line with dynafit speed turns- flat. felt like i skiing in high heels and tips dove like mad- like even uphill in powder- couldn't get the tips up. ended up putting a riser under the toe to get back to a more neutral ramp angle. felt much better, but tips dove and felt like they weren't there. i ski pretty neutral (or so i thought), however that may not be the case. I used to race and coach and as such i think i'm prone to always loading up the tips and generally skiing forward even if i don't think i am. at the time i also skied and loved gotamas with the full rocker so i thought i knew how to ski a rockered ski with a more neutral stance. The mount and the toe risers allowed me to move the binding back one set of holes and i did, effectively putting me at -8 or -10 mm behind the center point and a full -5 i believe from the recommended point (from Hoji himself). after this, i loved the ski in all conditions, and they skied well with no tip dive. they instantly became my favorite ski at the time.

    flash forward to this year- bought a new pair of boots with a slightly bigger sole length. had to move the toes forward to get them to fit (so effective mounting point back at the recommended). they skied like shit again. had a new set of holes drilled to move the mounting point back yet again. these skis are now on their last legs, but skiing and touring great again.

    So- my question for the collective is what are the current rules with mounting point. go "recommended" and set and forget? i also noticed that the skis toured much better at the -10 point. tips stay up in powder touring, tails seem to stay just a hair down on kick turns, etc. seems like the perfect point for me. I can't imagine i'm that unique... how does this apply to daughts question. could it be possible for him to like a ski and like it even better with a more rearward mounting position? Where do the recommended mounting positions come from and how should one in the market for new skis apply this to their decision?

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