Jones Pass Fatality

[Foggy_Goggles]

Nah dude, that's just a heuristic.

Man Killing Cokes stuff on IG was hard to read, he even blew up a business account for no good reason.

I'll never get the appeal of skiing the bc on high or extreme days. Me, I'd rather ski a bazillion vertical feet of pow off the chairlifts til I can barely walk on a day like that than ski one or two scary backcountry laps on low angled pow. To each their own, I guess.

Because...clicks. He's a sponsored backcountry skier that authored a guidebook...oh wait.

Our Colorado Backcountry Community no longer exists. The internet has sent this thing so far off the rails I have no clue about what the future will bring.

Choose your partners wisely. Make conservative decision making. Don't fight on the internet.

[daviski]

the juxtaposition of these two pictures of I believe the same slope is pretty disturbing, the first is from the CAIC report that mjp referenced when warnings were moderate and considerable (depending on treeline)



and this from the CAIC preliminary report of last Thurs event

[Wildman]

Choose your partners wisely. Make conservative decision making

Some really good discussion here. I completely agree with goldenboy and foggy here. Why risk it? Lift served pow typically delivers on storm days with high avy danger.

With regards to this incident I am very familiar with the particular area and have skiied it many times. Adrenalated nailed the terrain description. I have also seen this area slide before (storm slab).

Here is a pic of the line.

Looking down from the first bench. I assume the skiers in the pic are in the “safe zone” references in andrenalated post.

Looking up from the second bench at the top of the line.

On this day we skiied this from the ridge in stable conditions, but it is frequently skiied from the lookers left shoulder. Which avoids the big bowl and convexity at the top.

My partners refer to this line as “the dragon”.

I question why clients would be ok going out into this terrain on a high/extreme day. Only thing I can think of a “expert halo”. Seems like folks may have thought “it’s ok I’m with professionals”. This must happen relatively often.

As backcountry skiers that venture out in high/extreme days, it would hope that these folks consider the impact that their actions may have on others and the larger community. For example you are not just exposing yourself to danger but risking the lives of others (SAR) in the event something should go wrong.

Vibes to all affected by this tragedy.

[The SnowShow]

Some really good discussion here. I completely agree with goldenboy and foggy here. Why risk it? Lift served pow typically delivers on storm days with high avy danger.

With regards to this incident I am very familiar with the particular area and have skiied it many times. Adrenalated nailed the terrain description. I have also seen this area slide before (storm slab).

Here is a pic of the line.

Looking down from the first bench. I assume the skiers in the pic are in the “safe zone” references in andrenalated post.

Looking up from the second bench at the top of the line.

On this day we skiied this from the ridge in stable conditions, but it is frequently skiied from the lookers left shoulder. Which avoids the big bowl and convexity at the top.

My partners refer to this line as “the dragon”.

I question why clients would be ok going out into this terrain on a high/extreme day. Only thing I can think of a “expert halo”. Seems like folks may have thought “it’s ok I’m with professionals”. This must happen relatively often.

As backcountry skiers that venture out in high/extreme days, it would hope that these folks consider the impact that their actions may have on others and the larger community. For example you are not just exposing yourself to danger but risking the lives of others (SAR) in the event something should go wrong.

Vibes to all affected by this tragedy.

I’m surprised he has kids and still acts that way. I’ve found having them has mellowed me big time and my risk tolerance is much lower. Getting myself killed during high or even historic avalanche danger is not something I want my wife or kid to have to deal with.

[Gunder]

I’m surprised he has kids and still acts that way. I’ve found having them has mellowed me big time and my risk tolerance is much lower. Getting myself killed during high or even historic avalanche danger is not something I want my wife or kid to have to deal with.

I ditto that.

[Rideski]

It's out of line to bring his kids into this. He loves his kids and is active in their lives. There are plenty of men and women with kids that have dangerous hobbies and professions. Not to mention that this thread (was) about a different person dying.

[daviski]

Am I right in thinking that the CAIC has a particularly daunting challenge in making a thorough report with the region remaining dangerous for days and now with a new cycle. How much access could they have safely had to investigate?

[summit]

Not to mention that this thread (was) about a different person dying.

RIP, but threads drift over 7 pages, and a rationale was provided. Major topic was being in/under avalanche terrain in EXTREME/HIGH conditions. Killing Cokes hopefully will not be the next RIP thread, but he is publicly rolling dice harder than his head over the years while proclaiming to be an ambassador, role model and guide book writer.

Am I right in thinking that the CAIC has a particularly daunting challenge in making a thorough report with the region remaining dangerous for days and now with a new cycle. How much access could they have safely had to investigate?

It's not like they are climbing into alpine start zones one by one to dig pits.

Remember that in addition to all the forecasters going out and making their own obs and checking all the scientific data from stations, they rely on an army of observers, especially all the ski patrols who have their own forecasters and mitigators, guiding ops, CDOT (highway CAIC avalanche forecasters, explosive mitigators as well as other highway workers), other avalanche professionals, and members of the public, like you, to provide observations. There has been visibility and avalanche reports as well as snowpack obs from many sources. There is a good deal more information available (and more timely) to forecasters creating a forecast than we see posted on their obs page. It is not to deny us, but rather their need to quickly seek relevant data to base a forecast on vs parsing/prepping each verbal/raw obs for public consumption, plus much of the data is proprietary to ski hill and guide ops.

CAIC Forecasters take their own obs and the large amount of obs from their army, then put it through the filter of education and experience to create the forecast product. Then they get to bite their nails. Tough job!

[Rideski]

I like you A, would ski with you any time.
In a self moderated forum, I'm casting my vote I don't think threads that name a deceased person should drift. It's pretty clear that with search functions in 2019, that person's friends and fam will be reading this. I don't think it's any place to speculate, debate, etc. About the deceased, and more certainly about other people, and even more about their kids.

[summit]

@rideski

Appreciated, and I certainly am not discussing kids. In fact, nobody has said anything bad or negative about anyone's kids!

I do think we had a system for avalanche fatalities that worked well for a while here which was:
Ski & Snowboard thread for focused RIP/Vibes.
Slide Zone thread for critical accident analysis and broad learning.
The purpose for that was to have separate spaces for emotional outpouring, catharsis, and positive mindset and another analytical space where it is permissible to be respectfully critical and move across topics for learning.

Not sure where we are with that as a community, but I liked that model.

If that's not what we are doing anymore, do we need separate analysis and vibes threads both in Slide Zone?

[mcski]

Summit, I think you're correct.

[adrenalated]

Am I right in thinking that the CAIC has a particularly daunting challenge in making a thorough report with the region remaining dangerous for days and now with a new cycle. How much access could they have safely had to investigate?

Summit covered the making of a forecast side really well, but if you are talking about generating the accident report for this avalanche, I don't see any reason that CAIC staff wouldn't have been able to safely visit the site over the weekend (after natural activity had waned), and that combined with interviewing the party(s) involved should allow them to produce a good, comprehensive report. I would imagine that they weren't able to perform a crown profile on this slide, but that's fairly common, and especially in this report, shouldn't be crucial information to understanding what happened.

[bodywhomper]

Summit, I think you're correct.

Agree.

Thanks for taking the time to write down those guidelines.

~~~
It sounds like there is a chance that the cat guiding group provided observations and their own forecasts for the caic’s forecast. It’ll be interesting to know.

I’m still baffled by that IG post in so many ways.

[Rideski]

@Summit Yeah I didn't think you said anything about his kids but didn't scroll back to see. Several others did, so I felt like stepping in. Didn't intend to put words in your mouth. As for separate threads, yeah that's what I suggested on page 2 or wherever it was. People make mistakes, that's just what people do. People behind keyboards get weird, just another thing people do. The general public that doesn't frequent forums like trg would be aghast at some of the mud slinging around here, and no doubt are having sleepless thoughts about some of the things that have been said.

I doubt some of the people saying PA made a vast error would be saying it at the dude's funeral, but that is essentially what's happening in the realm of modern accessibility to this thread since it spells out his full name.

Maybe I'm just over sensitive to death right now, have lost a lot of people in the last few years. But anyway, that's my thought at the current moment. Signing out of the thread.

[adrenalated]

It sounds like there is a chance that the cat guiding group provided observations and their own forecasts for the caic’s forecast. It’ll be interesting to know.

They do. There are names that pop up regularly on CAIC's public observations page that I know are guides/snow safety people for Powder Addiction.

[summit]

@rideski I respect that view. And you put it well: people get weird behind their keyboards (I've been guilty plenty o times). Then again, this isn't a funeral, and I think most people are trying to (and should) limit judgement about PA to the limited facts we have or are couching anything further as speculative. I don't think anyone has critically judged Hans individually because we don't have that kinda of info. I have little doubt that when the info comes out, whatever lapse there might have been will be revealed as a system/groupthinking problem, not an individual's sole error.

KC/FritzSperry's public choices/IG as a related topic to high/extreme danger avi terrain skiing doesn't slag Hans IMHO. KC's situation is as individual as it comes. So maybe that deserves a second thread as you suggest.

We definitely agree nobody should rip on kids. I don't think anyone has ripped on kids rereading, though some (not I) have commented on an adult's risk tolerance in relation to having a family. Although in this particular case, risk tolerance is a red herring (an excuse) with KC self-deluding about the risk in the first place.

Summit covered the making of a forecast side really well, but if you are talking about generating the accident report for this avalanche, I don't see any reason that CAIC staff wouldn't have been able to safely visit the site over the weekend (after natural activity had waned), and that combined with interviewing the party(s) involved should allow them to produce a good, comprehensive report. I would imagine that they weren't able to perform a crown profile on this slide, but that's fairly common, and especially in this report, shouldn't be crucial information to understanding what happened.

Agree with this!

(And I think I misunderstood daviski's original question!)

[Bunion 2020]

A biking buddy of mine of mine went to jail for manslaughter for trundling a rock off the tallest peak in MT. He didn't know or think there were climbers below. It didn't stop anyone from climbing it. But yeah we don't know details on what happened in this accident and I only play a lawyer online.

Small world, buddy of mine was a witness in that case.

[The SnowShow]

Agree re: the thread drift. RIP Hans.

[bendtheski]

Thanks for your work. It must be really rough some days.

In a moment of clarity, I remembered getting a visit earlier in the week from a 69 year old gentleman we helped get transported from Loveland to hospital two weeks ago for cardiac arrest. Guy walked up the stairs himself, showed us the EKG spike, had something like 90% blockage of descending aorta, had stint put in, and here he was all smiles and shaking our hands.

Pretty rare for us to hear about this positive an outcome, but softens the suck a little for the situations we can't help. Can't tell you how much it meant to have someone take the time to acknowledge our part in his survival/recovery.

Sorry for the drift. Carry on. Oh yeah, glad authorities didn't pursue the closure angle.

[galibier_numero_un]

^^^ great story in a sad thread ^^^

[daviski]

The CAIC report seems an unusually long time coming. NOT a criticism just wondering.

[Danno]

The CAIC report seems an unusually long time coming. NOT a criticism just wondering.

Uh, the CAIC has been just a bit more busy than usual.

[adrenalated]

Uh, the CAIC has been just a bit more busy than usual.

This.

Sometimes they can do a report in a week, but usually it's longer, taking a month is not uncommon if they are busy. In addition to the massive amount of highway forecasting/mitigation work they've had to do over the past month, they have four (!) reports to prepare on fatal avalanches. Telluride 2/19, Lizard Head Pass 3/3, Jones Pass 3/7, Crested Butte 3/8. It will take longer than usual.

[goldenboy]

This.

Sometimes they can do a report in a week, but usually it's longer, taking a month is not uncommon if they are busy. In addition to the massive amount of highway forecasting/mitigation work they've had to do over the past month, they have four (!) reports to prepare on fatal avalanches. Telluride 2/19, Lizard Head Pass 3/3, Jones Pass 3/7, Crested Butte 3/8. It will take longer than usual.

And you're not even counting close calls, property damaging events, etc- all of which often get a full write-up as well. We'll be both skiing and reading CAIC well into spring...

[simple]

I'm sure CAIC is being very careful with their report that involves an employee being killed by potential negligence. Yeah I went there sorry but lawyers will likely be involved by all parties.