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  1. #1
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    Wildcat 108 and woodsman

    Iím interested in both of these. Am I wrong to think that they are going to ski extremely similar? Will the mount point on the woodsman be further back? With moment putting weight back in I feel like both will have a similar feel.

  2. #2
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    My $0.02 having skied neither:

    I believe the mount point is around -6 for both.

    Woodsman has a partial twin. So definitely less tail splay, but not sure about depth of tail rocker overall.

    Woodsman might have more taper (hard to say) but less abrupt taper. Not sure how, if at all, this will translate to snow.

    Feel will be typical ON3P vs Moment. So Moment a little edgier and dead feeling, while ON3P more poppy at the expense of torsional rigidity.
    Last edited by auvgeek; 03-06-2019 at 11:37 AM.
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  3. #3
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    I think similar in that they are new and 108sh. I doubt they will ski all that similar. Fairly different designs
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  4. #4
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    This is the tech talk equivalent of asking what the weather in Whistler will be like next December.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by toast2266 View Post
    This is the tech talk equivalent of asking what the weather in Whistler will be like next December.
    It'll be horrible, don't go.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by auvgeek View Post

    Feel will be typical ON3P vs Moment. So Moment a little edgier and dead feeling, while ON3P more poppy and lively at the expense of torsional rigidity.
    I personally feel that a Moment build is a lot more lively and poppy than a bamboo, super thick base ON3P build....but thats just me.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melee View Post
    I personally feel that a Moment build is a lot more lively and poppy than a bamboo, super thick base ON3P build....but thats just me.
    I respect your opinion, and I haven't skied the most recent Moment skis.

    Lively may have the wrong word, but I found the ON3P skis to rebound harder to the more you flex them while simultaneously dampening out high frequency vibrations. OTOH, the Moment skis I've skied have felt more prone to being bounced around and also provide less energy out of the ski when flexed deeply. They are lighter, though, with greater torsional stiffness so they can hold an edge a bit better. Different strokes.

    And maybe I'm totally wrong -- been a few years since I skied them back to back.
    "Alpine rock and steep, deep powder are what I seek, and I will always find solace there." - Bean Bowers

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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melee View Post
    I personally feel that a Moment build is a lot more lively and poppy than a bamboo, super thick base ON3P build....but thats just me.
    I totally agree here. I got 2 pairs of ON3Ps for now and they felt like I'm on chevy tahoe, while Moments feel like a corvette.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by HukuTa_KydecHuk View Post
    I totally agree here. I got 2 pairs of ON3Ps for now and they felt like I'm on chevy tahoe, while Moments feel like a corvette.
    In all seriousness, can you give a Praxis - car comparison?

  10. #10
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    Having owned an loved a bunch of on3p and moments I tend to agree that moments are quite responsive. I think the biggest difference between the two is the weight and how that impact last the ride. Moments are pretty damn stable for how light they tend to be but in deeper heavier chop, a 2.5 kg ski is going to provide more stability at speed. I would think that the Kartel 108 and wildcat 108 would be more comparable than a woodsman. Woodsman is supposed to be the love child of the Kartel and wren. A -4 mount and -10,.5 mount. Wildcat mount is -6 I believe and effective edge numbers are close to the Kartel 108.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by auvgeek View Post
    I respect your opinion, and I haven't skied the most recent Moment skis.

    Lively may have the wrong word, but I found the ON3P skis to rebound harder to the more you flex them while simultaneously dampening out high frequency vibrations. OTOH, the Moment skis I've skied have felt more prone to being bounced around and also provide less energy out of the ski when flexed deeply. They are lighter, though, with greater torsional stiffness so they can hold an edge a bit better. Different strokes.

    And maybe I'm totally wrong -- been a few years since I skied them back to back.
    FWIW this is basically my experience exactly, but I also have not skied any newer Moments. Last Moment model I skied was probably ~13/14 or so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Norseman View Post
    All ye punterz! Leave thine stupid heavy skis in the past, or at least in the resort category, for the age of lightweight pussy sticks is upon us! Behold! Keep up with the randocommandos on their carbon blades of shortness! Break thine tibias into spiral splinters with pintech extravagance!

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by auvgeek View Post
    Feel will be typical ON3P vs Moment. So Moment a little edgier and dead feeling, while ON3P more poppy at the expense of torsional rigidity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Melee View Post
    I personally feel that a Moment build is a lot more lively and poppy than a bamboo, super thick base ON3P build....but thats just me.
    Quote Originally Posted by HukuTa_KydecHuk View Post
    I totally agree here. I got 2 pairs of ON3Ps for now and they felt like I'm on chevy tahoe, while Moments feel like a corvette.
    Quote Originally Posted by adrenalated View Post
    FWIW this is basically my experience exactly, but I also have not skied any newer Moments. Last Moment model I skied was probably ~13/14 or so.

    This is making it hard to trust what people are saying around about certain skis

  13. #13
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    I too think that these will be a couple skis worth comparing. Kind of hard to compare two skis that not many have skied yet though. I think these will squeeze in between K108 and Woodsman as far as ski type.

    I have a hard time with ski feel. I have some old Bibbys and some newer Billy Goats. Guess I need to do some back to back runs and really pay attention to the feel. The BG are for sure more damp and stompable. The Bibbys are much more lively edge to edge. I think any other comparisons I make will be more because of ski shape than layup.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by lrn2swim View Post
    This is making it hard to trust what people are saying around about certain skis
    I would guess we have similar experiences, even if we're having trouble with the language. The Tahoe vs Corvette analogy mentioned above still fits with my description. I'm not exactly a car guy, but: a sports car suspension is tuned stiffer and will bounce around more, but that means they corner (edge in the ski world) better; whereas a truck will just soak up bumps but you get some body roll in corners on pavement (2D snow). The sports car can be pushed harder on firm terrain, while the truck has an advantage in bumpy terrain. (NB: I doubt the difference is as drastic as truck vs sports car.)

    Where the car analogy breaks down (at least in my driving experience), is you don't purposely load up a car suspension to generate pop and catch air like you do with a ski. And that's where the ON3P layup shines: it has dampening for high frequency vibrations but generates lots of rebound when you load up the ski, i.e., doesn't feel "dead."

    Again, for the standard layups I've skied
    Last edited by auvgeek; 03-06-2019 at 05:34 PM.
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  15. #15
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    It's kind of funny that in your analogy, the company from Tahoe isn't the Tahoe.

    Also, given that both companies make a lot of different skis with a lot of different core materials in a lot of different layups, I think your generalizations are kind of dumb.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by toast2266 View Post
    It's kind of funny that in your analogy, the company from Tahoe isn't the Tahoe.

    Also, given that both companies make a lot of different skis with a lot of different core materials in a lot of different layups, I think your generalizations are kind of dumb.
    At least others are trying to put their experiences into terms that other people might be able to relate to. Suggesting that their efforts are dumb isn't really contributing much. What's your take? How would you describe the basic differences in layup, design etc.? Attempting to explain those differences in a way that makes sense for the individual and others is interesting and difficult. If you don't see value in the discussion there are plenty of other threads available for your input.
    My experience is similar to auv's, but I'm on old Moments that might even have basalt in them? (first year of the current Bibby shape - Jack and Jill in the canoe) and touring layup ON3Ps. My Bibbys are more like Camaro than 'Vette in that they'll surprise the sports car crowd but aren't out of their depth at a pit party. My Steeples are more like a desert race truck than stock Tahoe in that they are surprisingly quick across a broad range of conditions given their outward appearances.

  17. #17
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    Looking forward to seeing how many pages this hits before someone gets both on snow for an A/B.

    My bet is 6 pages.

  18. #18
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    Seriously, this canít turn into yet another ON3P thread....

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reformed View Post
    At least others are trying to put their experiences into terms that other people might be able to relate to. Suggesting that their efforts are dumb isn't really contributing much. What's your take? How would you describe the basic differences in layup, design etc.? Attempting to explain those differences in a way that makes sense for the individual and others is interesting and difficult. If you don't see value in the discussion there are plenty of other threads available for your input.
    My experience is similar to auv's, but I'm on old Moments that might even have basalt in them? (first year of the current Bibby shape - Jack and Jill in the canoe) and touring layup ON3Ps. My Bibbys are more like Camaro than 'Vette in that they'll surprise the sports car crowd but aren't out of their depth at a pit party. My Steeples are more like a desert race truck than stock Tahoe in that they are surprisingly quick across a broad range of conditions given their outward appearances.
    All my Fords drive the same. Or alternatively, "tastes like chicken!"

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by auvgeek View Post
    And that's where the ON3P layup shines: it has dampening for high frequency vibrations but generates lots of rebound when you load up the ski, i.e., doesn't feel "dead."
    I've never skied Moments, but I find AG's description of ON3Ps to be bang on. The amount of pop you get out of a fully loaded ON3P is staggering, but that does not translate into carving pop on harder surfaces imo (at least not at my skill level). Anyway, the debate just illustrates the difficulty in using universal terms, or if there even is such a thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reformed View Post
    At least others are trying to put their experiences into terms that other people might be able to relate to. Suggesting that their efforts are dumb isn't really contributing much.
    Agreed. AG just tries to build on a previous poster and explain what he meant - you know, providing insight - while others are shutting down the discussion. I know which of the two approaches I value.

    I would not be terribly surprised if the debate of kartels/woodsman vs wildcats end up with the latter both being considered more lively and more poppy, but where ON3Ps admittedly have next level pop when loaded up significantly - but zesty hard surface carvers ON3Ps are not. And ON3P and Moment alike maks awesome skis.

    It struck me last night that Moment might be hitting the current trends a bit more than ON3P by focusing on building light weight, but still extremely capable skis. No, I am not saying that they are following the trends, but that their optimization process yields results that are bang on according to current trends - which is great news for Moment. What I appreciate with ON3P is that they remain true to their design philosophy across the line with full on heavy duty edges, bamboo cores, heavy glass and extra thick bases across the line. Aka nearly indestructable buils quality with killer feel.

    I would love to get a Moment core in an ON3P ski - their shapes are awesome - but that prob won't happen anytime soon.

    Anyway, thanks Moment and ON3P for spreading so much stoke by making killer skis!

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by toast2266 View Post
    ...
    Also, given that both companies make a lot of different skis with a lot of different core materials in a lot of different layups, ....
    Given the vast majority of Moments skis are aspen/pine -- especially their classics -- (yes, the recently introduced a full maple and full bamboo this past season), and given that On3p only has ever made bamboo cores , I think it's a stretch to say that both make a bunch of different core materials.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reformed View Post
    At least others are trying to put their experiences into terms that other people might be able to relate to. Suggesting that their efforts are dumb isn't really contributing much. What's your take? How would you describe the basic differences in layup, design etc.? Attempting to explain those differences in a way that makes sense for the individual and others is interesting and difficult. If you don't see value in the discussion there are plenty of other threads available for your input.
    My experience is similar to auv's, but I'm on old Moments that might even have basalt in them? (first year of the current Bibby shape - Jack and Jill in the canoe) and touring layup ON3Ps. My Bibbys are more like Camaro than 'Vette in that they'll surprise the sports car crowd but aren't out of their depth at a pit party. My Steeples are more like a desert race truck than stock Tahoe in that they are surprisingly quick across a broad range of conditions given their outward appearances.
    I'll distill it down for you. My experience after skiing a whole bunch of different Moments and a few different ON3Ps is that they're all different. If you want to act like an old Belafonte skis like a new Wildcat Tour, that's fine, but you're wrong. And if you want to draw brand-wide generalizations from your wrong conclusion, that's both dumb and useless.

    I'm sure both the Wildcat 108 and the Woodsman will be great skis. But comparing a couple of skis that don't exist in the public marketplace is pretty much just internet fappage. Quit wasting your time and come back when you've actually had them on snow. Or maybe don't, since apparently you think every ski from these two brands can be packaged into a universal 2 sentence description.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by auvgeek View Post
    it has dampening for high frequency vibrations
    Click image for larger version. 

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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by toast2266 View Post
    I'll distill it down for you. My experience after skiing a whole bunch of different Moments and a few different ON3Ps is that they're all different. If you want to act like an old Belafonte skis like a new Wildcat Tour, that's fine, but you're wrong. And if you want to draw brand-wide generalizations from your wrong conclusion, that's both dumb and useless.

    I'm sure both the Wildcat 108 and the Woodsman will be great skis. But comparing a couple of skis that don't exist in the public marketplace is pretty much just internet fappage. Quit wasting your time and come back when you've actually had them on snow. Or maybe don't, since apparently you think every ski from these two brands can be packaged into a universal 2 sentence description.
    The thing is, many companies can have a general, very recognizable feel. Many reviewers have often said (especially pre 2019 before they stiffened up the Wren a bit) that the biggest difference between the feel of the K108 and Wren 108 is the mount point. That lends to a general feel ON3Pís skis have. Obviously different shapes will require different input from the skier, and nobody except you is arguing that.

    Iíve never been on a moment so I canít chime in on how they feel, but my experiences with ON3Ps aligns very much with others in this thread, in a very good way. I love the feel of my ON3Ps and will continue to buy from ON3P due to their unique feel that Iíve now grown used to. Also, judging from the many reviews Iíve read, it definitely doesnít seem unfair to generally characterize many Moments the way theyíve been characterized in this thread. Both companies make great skis, and many people have loved and also not loved skis from both companies.


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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by toast2266 View Post
    If you want to act like an old Belafonte skis like a new Wildcat Tour, that's fine, but you're wrong.
    Those skis are totally different for sure.

    Instead of making every single model with the same core we try to build the core that works best for the skis objective. We can do this because we source all our lumber directly from the mills, full length and free of knots. All lamination and profiling is done in house.

    Every ski in our tour line for 19/20 is Paulownia/Ash. Which feels very different than an Aspen/Pine or Aspen/Ash build. The Paulownia plus a modified layup and different carbon/fiberglass stack leads to skis that are dramatically lighter than their stock counterpart.

    Over the last couple of years we have added a lot more durability and strength to our skis with semi-cap. In doing so it has allowed us to use less sidewall and overall material.
    Weight savings was never the goal, its was strength, durability and increased edge hold which did increase dramatically as well.

    With the weight reduction and less sidewall in the ski the newer models are slightly less damp than their older counterparts.

    Trying to balance the weight vs ski-ability of our skis is always a tricky task in todays ski market.

    I think its also important to note that if you haven't been on a Moment in the last couple years then you need to try them again because the construction methods, carbon, fiberglass, epoxy and other materials are dramatically different than they were. Some people in this thread were trying to talk about the way our skis felt that were built over 10 years ago...not a good benchmark by any means.

    I think many of you will be happy to know that for 19/20 almost all the mens skis are moving from an Aspen/Pine core to a Aspen/Ash core, including the Deathwish.

    We have been testing these all season and everyone has been loving the change and falling in love with the skis all over again. Definitely a great update with quiets the skis down and provides are more lively pop in the ski than just putting a bunch of plastic in there. The harder Ash wood also adds even more strength to the ski than Pine.

    Regardless, I think its rad that there are so many rad skis in the market today. ON3P has their philosophy and we have ours. It provides are rad opportunity for skiers to find a ski that really suits their style and pushes the brands to make something better every year other than just a new topsheet.

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