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  1. #51
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    Dec 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles View Post
    What I'm now realizing is that there are so many factors, both internal and external, that effect our decision making that it is anything but "simple and easy". We are our own worst enemy. It almost takes some level of awareness and self-consciousness that is uncomfortable.
    Well said. I like where this thread has gone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Summit View Post
    Avalanche education has shifted emphasis from science to human factors, risk, and decision making more and more over the last 10-15 years.
    The wildfire community has developed a lot of human factors and heuristics training, modeled after military and aviation training in that area. If you want to learn it seems as important to know the thinking behind an incident as it is to know what happened and how.
    Jesus rides beside me, he never buys any smokes.

  2. #52
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
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    SLC
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    4,447
    Quote Originally Posted by powdork View Post
    I've learned from these discussions. You try to figure out what the thought processes or group thought processes were that led to the result. "How did you end up on that 38 degree slope that you all said you were going to avoid before you left the car?" In previous discussions someone posted a link that included the idea to always have someone in the group to play devils advocate for the important decisions. Last sunday we were skiing powderhouse on a high day with the main danger being touchy windslabs on the ridgeline. we would reassess things as we went up as whether to turn back early but we weren't going to the ridgeline. The guy in front kept going and as we got nearer to the ridgeline and the top layer got a bit heavier I pulled the plug for the rest of us (and we had a radio to tell the guy up front so he turned around too). This wasn't a hard decision mostly because it's not one of those ridgelines you WANT to drop in off of the better skiing is below. But without these discussions I likely wouldn't have spoken up as I did.

    I just think faulty decision making is the number one reason people die from avalanches so to throw up our arms and say we can't discuss it but we can discuss all the science that we in many cases ignore anyway is kinda silly.
    I definitely do not mean to give the impression that I think discussion is worthless - see the post I quoted (and the previous few) for the context of my remarks. I don't think saying "look at these idiots, crossing an avalanche path, how come people are so stupid?" brings anything to the table. But obviously I agree that mature discussion, particularly when we're being honest with ourselves about our motives and so forth, is very valuable and I also have learned a great deal from these discussions, both in the flesh and here.

  3. #53
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
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    4,132

    2 buried/killed Brush Creek, Crested Butte CO

    When I took the old fuac 3 day course, the curriculum included evening discussions, slide presentations, and videos of case studies of mistakes. Analysis was focused on what they did wrong from decisionmaking to rescue. Many of them involved peers of the instructors (ie avi pros and guides). The wasatch was having a really bad year, and the discussion also included events from earlier that winter.

  4. #54
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
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    Couloirfornia
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    8,717
    Quote Originally Posted by I've seen black diamonds! View Post
    I do think a national organization that focuses on analyzing accidents developed to the point that it is recognized as the authority on the subject, and thus treated as required reading for BC skiers, could result in a significant reduction in blatant human error. This would be separate from forecasting organizations, but prominently linked to on all such pages. No space for public comment. No shaming. Honest, carefully crafted storytelling an high quality photos + video. It would cost time and $$$ to do it right. Production value matters when you are effectively competing with facebook and instagram.
    What you're describing here sounds like Accidents in North American Mountaineering. To a certain extent. But a more ski/avalanche-specific version.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ernest_Hemingway View Post
    I realize there is not much hope for a bullfighting forum. I understand that most of you would prefer to discuss the ingredients of jacket fabrics than the ingredients of a brave man. I know nothing of the former. But the latter is made of courage, and skill, and grace in the presence of the possibility of death. If someone could make a jacket of those three things it would no doubt be the most popular and prized item in all of your closets.

  5. #55
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Posts
    3

  6. #56
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
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    here and there
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    Sorry to hear this. Vibes

  7. #57
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    Dec 2005
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    Dang, I got the 3rd edition of Tremper’s “Staying Alive...” the other day, and there’s a chapter at the end called “The Human Factor.” A friend of mine helped him edit that chapter, and coincidentally that guy is visiting me because he’s presenting a segment on human factors to a local patrol avy training session. And where I’m going with this is this passage from that chapter:
    ...after an accident it’s all too easy to point fingers and lay blame on those who made an error. There are two big reasons not to fall into this trap: First, every one of us makes the same errors, but nothing bad has happened - yet....Second, hindsight is always twenty twenty, because we know the outcome and thus we can clearly trace back through the specific chain of events to identify mistakes...instead of pointing fingers, put yourself in the victim’s shoes and see things from the perspective of someone making complex decisions with often competing goals and multiple focuses. You will soon recognize that every one of us could have made the same decisions - and probably did many times in the past - but everything turned out fine.
    People can probably poke holes in that because it’s selective quoting, but I strongly recommend getting the 3rd edition of SAIAT by Tremper and read the human factor chapter.
    Jesus rides beside me, he never buys any smokes.

  8. #58
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    none
    Posts
    6,261
    I didn’t know Owen, but I recognized him in his photo.
    The RFV’s lost a lot of friends this season.

  9. #59
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    Colorado Front Range
    Posts
    2,858
    On a related note, I'm on my 3rd listening this year of @covert's "Slide" podcast - just finished the situational awareness episodes.

    It's a sobering, humbling reminder of how stupid all of us are.

    Sent from my LM-G710VM using Tapatalk
    Last edited by galibier_numero_un; 02-24-2019 at 12:40 AM.
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