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Thread: MLB Thread 2019

  1. #1651
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    Reportedly Strasburg wants to stay and may be amenable to some creative bookeeping, so maybe they can figure out a way to swing it.

  2. #1652
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodsy View Post
    Lindor likely a Yankee unfortunately...

    On another note. lets argue
    https://baseballhall.org/modern-base...ra-ballot-2020

    Murphy. Mattingly. Garvey
    Simmons, Whitaker, Miller
    "fuck off you asshat gaper shit for brains fucktard wanker." - Jesus Christ
    "She was tossing her bean salad with the vigor of a Drunken Pop princess so I walked out of the corner and said.... "need a hand?"" - Odin

  3. #1653
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    evans, murphy, whitaker
    .....I hope you know that this will go down on your permanent record

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  4. #1654
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    Quote Originally Posted by ml242 View Post
    evans, murphy, whitaker
    Agreed but Munson needs to be in there too somehow imo. Only a couple months past his 32nd b-day, what a sin.

  5. #1655
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    Quote Originally Posted by ml242 View Post
    evans, murphy, whitaker
    but not a player like this?

    Career: .294 BA, 272 HR, 1,308 RBI, 2,599 hits
    10-time All-Star
    4-time Gold Glove Winner
    1974 N.L. MVP (.312 BA, 21 HR, 111 RBI)
    5 times in top 6 of N.L. MVP voting
    6 times with 200 or more hits something achieved by only 13 other players in baseball history at the time of his retirement. All of the other 13 are in the Hall of Fame with the exception of Pete Rose.
    7 times with a .300 batting average or bettter
    5 times with 100 or more RBI
    Career post-season: .338 BA, 11 HR, 31 RBI, .910 OPS
    MVP of 1978 and 1984 NLCS
    Career in 10 All-Star Games: .393 BA, 2 HR, 7 RBI, 1.255 OPS (two-time MVP)
    1,207 consecutive games played (1975-1983), longest streak in N.L. history
    World Series Champion

    whats holding him back?

  6. #1656
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    or

    .290 BA 377 HR 1518 RBI 2461 hits 5x all star, MVP, 4x Silver Slugger

    or

    .284 BA 492 HR 1550 RBI 5x All star 3x silver slugger

  7. #1657
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodsy View Post
    but not a player like this?

    Career: .294 BA, 272 HR, 1,308 RBI, 2,599 hits
    10-time All-Star
    4-time Gold Glove Winner
    1974 N.L. MVP (.312 BA, 21 HR, 111 RBI)
    5 times in top 6 of N.L. MVP voting
    6 times with 200 or more hits something achieved by only 13 other players in baseball history at the time of his retirement. All of the other 13 are in the Hall of Fame with the exception of Pete Rose.
    7 times with a .300 batting average or bettter
    5 times with 100 or more RBI
    Career post-season: .338 BA, 11 HR, 31 RBI, .910 OPS
    MVP of 1978 and 1984 NLCS
    Career in 10 All-Star Games: .393 BA, 2 HR, 7 RBI, 1.255 OPS (two-time MVP)
    1,207 consecutive games played (1975-1983), longest streak in N.L. history
    World Series Champion

    whats holding him back?
    i can't really do a deep dive, but he just doesn't strike me as a hall of famer. .300, more hr's would have been nice. Not an end all be all, but 38 war would lower the bar quite a bit.

    I am actually on the fence about Tommy John. Unlike the offensive stats seeming diminished in the rear view, his career looks stronger. Plus the surgery is named after him.
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  8. #1658
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodsy View Post
    but not a player like this?

    Career: .294 BA, 272 HR, 1,308 RBI, 2,599 hits
    10-time All-Star
    4-time Gold Glove Winner
    1974 N.L. MVP (.312 BA, 21 HR, 111 RBI)
    5 times in top 6 of N.L. MVP voting
    6 times with 200 or more hits something achieved by only 13 other players in baseball history at the time of his retirement. All of the other 13 are in the Hall of Fame with the exception of Pete Rose.
    7 times with a .300 batting average or bettter
    5 times with 100 or more RBI
    Career post-season: .338 BA, 11 HR, 31 RBI, .910 OPS
    MVP of 1978 and 1984 NLCS
    Career in 10 All-Star Games: .393 BA, 2 HR, 7 RBI, 1.255 OPS (two-time MVP)
    1,207 consecutive games played (1975-1983), longest streak in N.L. history
    World Series Champion

    whats holding him back?
    Garvey was a "star," and a very good player. But 38 WAR is really really low for a HoFer. All of the advanced stats say he wasn't as good as his image.
    "fuck off you asshat gaper shit for brains fucktard wanker." - Jesus Christ
    "She was tossing her bean salad with the vigor of a Drunken Pop princess so I walked out of the corner and said.... "need a hand?"" - Odin

  9. #1659
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    MLB Thread 2019

    That seems to be one of the cases in which WAR is just a stat not any better than any other. Itís the hall of fame, Not just the hall of stats. Heís a no brained HOF for anyone that watched baseball in the 70s/80s

    Tommy should be in just based on the surgery named after him and being able to come back from what previously would have been career ending injury to dominate. He literally changed the game being able to do that regardless of his stats which should put him in the HOF

  10. #1660
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    Prior to enjoying a baseball game I make sure the advanced stats back up my excitement.

  11. #1661
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danno View Post
    Garvey was a "star," and a very good player. But 38 WAR is really really low for a HoFer. All of the advanced stats say he wasn't as good as his image.
    WAR is diminished by a guy who consistently hit 3rd or 4th in that line up and was expected to get RBIs. Walks dont get RBIs, BUT walks help WAR.
    For 10 years he was considered the best player in his league at his position
    10 years
    He led all NL first baseman in fielding percentage five times, and his career mark of .9959 ranks 10th all-time at the position.
    I am biased as fuck as a late 40s Dodger fan, but I find it hard to believe anyone who watched baseball in the 70s & 80s wouldnt see him as a Hall of Famer. Much like Murphy

  12. #1662
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcski View Post
    That seems to be one of the cases in which WAR is just a stat not any better than any other. It’s the hall of fame, Not just the hall of stats. He’s a no brained HOF for anyone that watched baseball in the 70s/80s

    Tommy should be in just based on the surgery named after him and being able to come back from what previously would have been career ending injury to dominate. He literally changed the game being able to do that regardless of his stats which should put him in the HOF
    Uh, I watched baseball in the 70s/80s, as did the sportswriters voting on Garvey in the 90s and 00s, and he never got above 50% in the voting. And didn't get in the first two times on the "old timer's" ballot. So the notion that "he's a nobrained HoF" is bunk. You think he belongs. I recall watching a player -- even back then -- who always seemed to have a reputation greater than his actual performance.

    We use stats because that's what we have; you can say "he looked like a Hall of Famer" and I can say "no he didn't" and the discussion ends there. Baseball is and always has been a game driven by stats. Anyone that watched baseball in the 70s/80s -- or any other era for that matter -- should understand that. Sure, the advanced stats didn't exist then. But here's a few that were always around. 272 HRs for a first baseman is very low. Never even slugged .500 in a single season, and a slugging percentage below .450 for a first baseman is very low (he was only top 10 in the league twice, and both times just barely, which is not HoF material for a slugging first baseman). Under 500 BBs for his career, so while the batting average and hits totals are high-ish, his OBP is a very low .329. Grounded into an awful lot of DPs (38th all time).

    So you can say "ignore the stat heads" and Woodsy can point to his perceived value at the time (10 all star games), but my eye test back during his playing days and the stats and the eye test of all the voters who have exhaustively considered his candidacy have all concluded (to this point) that he is, in fact, not a hall of famer.
    "fuck off you asshat gaper shit for brains fucktard wanker." - Jesus Christ
    "She was tossing her bean salad with the vigor of a Drunken Pop princess so I walked out of the corner and said.... "need a hand?"" - Odin

  13. #1663
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodsy View Post
    For 10 years he was considered the best player in his league at his position
    what 10 year period is that? Because Keith Hernandez would like a word with you.

    I'd put Hernandez in over Garvey. I'm a Mets fan, so biased too. But I don't think either deserve being in the Hall.
    "fuck off you asshat gaper shit for brains fucktard wanker." - Jesus Christ
    "She was tossing her bean salad with the vigor of a Drunken Pop princess so I walked out of the corner and said.... "need a hand?"" - Odin

  14. #1664
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodsy View Post
    WAR is diminished by a guy who consistently hit 3rd or 4th in that line up and was expected to get RBIs. Walks dont get RBIs, BUT walks help WAR.
    For 10 years he was considered the best player in his league at his position
    10 years
    He led all NL first baseman in fielding percentage five times, and his career mark of .9959 ranks 10th all-time at the position.
    I am biased as fuck as a late 40s Dodger fan, but I find it hard to believe anyone who watched baseball in the 70s & 80s wouldnt see him as a Hall of Famer. Much like Murphy
    I am sure that the approach at the plate has changed over the years, but how much WAR could it really have cost him? And wouldn't other offensive stars in the middle of the lineup have been hurt fairly similarly?

    Meanwhile, which of these players in 1974 would you build a team around, because I think several people got robbed in MVP voting.

    Garvey: 4.4 .312 .342 .469 .811
    Bench: 7.9 280 .363 .507 .870
    Schmidt: 9.7 .282 .395 .546 .941
    Morgan: 8.6 .293 .427 .494 .921


    Garvey was a good and durable 1b, but the HOF has already rejected candidates that were far better (Mattingly and McGriff both come to mind).
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  15. #1665
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    He is getting his second bite at the apple, like Donny baseball.

    Appreciate the points all well made above, think it is just hard for me to look at the most acclaimed member of one of the longest lasting and most successful infields of all time, a group that went to the world series 3x and won it once (fuck the Yankees) and say he shouldnt be in the hall. Especially when broadcasters at the time reffered to him as "future hall of fame 1st baseman..."

    I guess I look at the Dodgers of the 70s/early 80s as an essential part of that era of baseball. To have Lasorda as the only part of that in the hall seems wrong.

    but as mentioned, biased as fuck and I dont get a vote

  16. #1666
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodsy View Post
    He is getting his second bite at the apple, like Donny baseball.

    Appreciate the points all well made above, think it is just hard for me to look at the most acclaimed member of one of the longest lasting and most successful infields of all time, a group that went to the world series 3x and won it once (fuck the Yankees) and say he shouldnt be in the hall. Especially when broadcasters at the time reffered to him as "future hall of fame 1st baseman..."

    I guess I look at the Dodgers of the 70s/early 80s as an essential part of that era of baseball. To have Lasorda as the only part of that in the hall seems wrong.

    but as mentioned, biased as fuck and I dont get a vote
    Sutton is in
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  17. #1667
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    Heh, came across this: https://www.mlb.com/news/will-steve-...ame-c262805278 which discusses how he was always referred to as "future hall of famer Steve Garvey".

    I get why a diehard Dodgers fan would feel he is hall worthy. I just don't think he was nearly as good as his reputation, and I think that the 5 year period before you're eligible worked perfectly here, it gave voters the time to better evaluate him with some distance from his playing days. He's had 17 bites at the apple, this is his 18th. And he still won't get in.
    "fuck off you asshat gaper shit for brains fucktard wanker." - Jesus Christ
    "She was tossing her bean salad with the vigor of a Drunken Pop princess so I walked out of the corner and said.... "need a hand?"" - Odin

  18. #1668
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodsy View Post
    WAR is diminished by a guy who consistently hit 3rd or 4th in that line up and was expected to get RBIs. Walks dont get RBIs, BUT walks help WAR.
    For 10 years he was considered the best player in his league at his position
    10 years
    He led all NL first baseman in fielding percentage five times, and his career mark of .9959 ranks 10th all-time at the position.
    I am biased as fuck as a late 40s Dodger fan, but I find it hard to believe anyone who watched baseball in the 70s & 80s wouldnt see him as a Hall of Famer. Much like Murphy
    Sorry, anyone who gets bitch slapped by Don Sutton does not qualify. Now, if you have a HOF for parenting kids out of wedlock (non NBA player version), then he's in


    j/k...he should be in. But not kidding about Sutton bitch slapping him
    Last edited by irul&ublo; 11-06-2019 at 05:12 PM.
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  19. #1669
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    ITTIL how high the bar actually is for the HoF. Didn't quite realize how those two dudes weren't qualified despite impressive careers.

  20. #1670
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    Sutton was a stud, but owes those infield 5 a lot of his success.

    Again all valid points but shows a lot how we look at and consume baseball now. As a kid looking at box scores and baseball cards, Garvey was 200 hits, AVG .300 with 20 homers, and drive in 100+ runs, every year for what seemed like forever all while playing great D. He showed up in the post season and even after he left did well for the Padres. Also, I lived out of market most of my life following the Dodgers from NC, TN, and eventually UT. Garvey was always the face of the franchise and in the public eye.

    Danno that article nails it and helps me feel like not just a homer, thanks.

    Ok back to Munson and Tommy John discussions
    \

  21. #1671
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    MLB Thread 2019

    Iím a Dodgers fan, though about a decade younger than Woodsy so I donít really have the personal connection. Seems like a ring of honor type guy but not quite half of fame.

    His bobblehead does sit on my kids shelf though, so he has that going for him.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  22. #1672
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodsy View Post
    Sutton was a stud, but owes those infield 5 a lot of his success.

    Again all valid points but shows a lot how we look at and consume baseball now. As a kid looking at box scores and baseball cards, Garvey was 200 hits, AVG .300 with 20 homers, and drive in 100+ runs, every year for what seemed like forever all while playing great D. He showed up in the post season and even after he left did well for the Padres. Also, I lived out of market most of my life following the Dodgers from NC, TN, and eventually UT. Garvey was always the face of the franchise and in the public eye.

    Danno that article nails it and helps me feel like not just a homer, thanks.

    Ok back to Munson and Tommy John discussions
    \
    what's really interesting is how the narrative helps some guys and not others. Dwight Evans compares favorably to Jim Rice, but the narrative was always "Jim Rice was feared" so he gets in while Evans is not. Simmons was a top notch catcher forever, a great player, but the fact that Bench was always better, and that his first year of eligibility came on a crowded ballot, and he got dropped in year 1. Bobby Grich and Lou Whitaker compare favorably to some of the other 2Bs that got in, but they lacked the narrative in their favor.

    Which is part of why I do not think Garvey should get in. The narrative was always in his favor, he was on the ballot for 15 years, and he still couldn't get in. I believe that's because he just wasn't quite good enough, we all bought into the narrative for a long time, but when push came to shove and we had to look at the details, the narrative couldn't prop him up enough when the details of his candidacy weren't strong enough.
    "fuck off you asshat gaper shit for brains fucktard wanker." - Jesus Christ
    "She was tossing her bean salad with the vigor of a Drunken Pop princess so I walked out of the corner and said.... "need a hand?"" - Odin

  23. #1673
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    "fuck off you asshat gaper shit for brains fucktard wanker." - Jesus Christ
    "She was tossing her bean salad with the vigor of a Drunken Pop princess so I walked out of the corner and said.... "need a hand?"" - Odin

  24. #1674
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    Woodsy, Iím with you. He should be in.

  25. #1675
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    Here is a very detailed article about the case of Steve Garvey:

    https://tht.fangraphs.com/steve-garvey-gets-no-respect/
    .....I hope you know that this will go down on your permanent record

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