MLB Thread 2019

[iceman]

you forgot the quotation marks

[Art Shirk]

I'm incredibly biased but just the defense alone is HoF worthy in my opinion:

- All-time leader in double plays made while playing shortstop
- 11-time Gold Glove recipient; Oldest shortstop recipient of the Gold Glove (age 38 in 2005, and again at age 39 in 2006)
- Highest career fielding percentage by a shortstop (0.9846) with at least 1,000 games played
- Lowest number of errors in a season by a shortstop (tie) (3 in the 2000 season)
- 6th in assists all-time, 3rd in assists at SS all-time

The M's traded Omar to the Tribe for some dudes named Félix Fermín, Reggie Jefferson, and cash. What?

His play in the field was nuts but it can’t go without saying that he’s 3rd in total hits for his position only behind Jeter and Honus “Where the fuck did I put that baseball card” Wagner.

I’d add that he has more sacrifice hits in the last 100 years than literally anyone, but that’s not a tasty stat until you realize he played for the Indians and Ms so he probably had fewer people on base.


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[ex-powderbroker]

Ah yes, Vizquel flashing the leather, i member.

[Woodsy]

https://www.vintagedetroit.com/blog/...sign-stealing/

Red Sox steal signs from monster, White Sox steal signs using electric scoreboard,

in the 50s...

[Timberridge]

Meanwhile in Japan, no participation trophy for you...

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/j...ne-was-worthy/

[Danno]

Jeter was not a great fielder, overall. But nobody can question his heart (see first gif) or his innate talent. That second play, the one at home plate, is one of the most amazing plays I have seen in my lifetime.

[Woodsy]

Jeter was not a great fielder, overall. But nobody can question his heart (see first gif) or his innate talent. That second play, the one at home plate, is one of the most amazing plays I have seen in my lifetime.

Giambi was safe and I almost got killed in the Oak Bar at the plaza (I was on a business trip) for saying so at the time.

[BmillsSkier]

Ah yes, Vizquel flashing the leather, i member.
]

Omar has the highest career fielding percentage of any shortstop.

Yep, I agree.

[ex-powderbroker]

Omar has the highest career fielding percentage of any shortstop.

Yep, I agree.

3 all star games and no starts. sad.

[Danno]

is the debate whether Omar was a great fielder? Because of course he was. And for a great fielding SS, he was not abysmal with the bat. A strong member of the Hall of the Very Good, but no way does he belong in the Hall of Fame.

Look at this and make the HoF argument: https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...izquom01.shtml Two seasons with an OPS+ over 100, and a career OPS+ of 82? This is the measuring stick for that type of player: https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...mithoz01.shtml Ozzie only got in because he was absolutely transcendent with the glove in a way that Omar never was (29.5 dWAR vs. 44.2 dWAR for Ozzie), plus the eye test for anyone who ever watched baseball. And Ozzie was slightly better with the bat (but both were weak) and much better on the base paths (580 steals vs 404, and Ozzie was caught 148 times while Omar was caught 167 times). Omar played over 400 more games and has more hits but they're not that dissimilar at the plate. Ozzie still beats him in oWAR, and overall has over 30 more WAR.

So if Ozzy is your benchmark for a weak hitter getting in because he's a wizard with the glove, Omar doesn't come close to that benchmark.

[ex-powderbroker]

Omar was certainly very good but fielding percentage is pretty meaningless.

In this context, he does look REALLY impressive:
https://www.baseball-reference.com/l...f_career.shtml

Unrelated, but now can I count on everyone's support for Andy Pettite?

[BmillsSkier]

So is it the Hall of Offense and related Pitchers now?

[Danno]

So is it the Hall of Offense and related Pitchers now?

Now? How many defensive specialists are in the hall? The difference between a mediocre defensive player and a great one is much less than the difference between a mediocre hitter and a great one. Playing good defense is just a plus factor for a candidacy. To make the hall primarily on your defensive ability requires absolutely transcendent ability (and this has always been the case). Ozzie Smith is the standard, and Omar isn't close to that. Sorry.

[BmillsSkier]

Now? How many defensive specialists are in the hall? The difference between a mediocre defensive player and a great one is much less than the difference between a mediocre hitter and a great one. Playing good defense is just a plus factor for a candidacy. To make the hall primarily on your defensive ability requires absolutely transcendent ability (and this has always been the case). Ozzie Smith is the standard, and Omar isn't close to that. Sorry.

Ok, so by this metric, I'm curious; who else is deserving?

Omar is 9th all time for defensive WAR (credit ml242), is the cutoff somewhere around #2? 7 of those top 10 are in the Hall. I'm guessing not all of them have Ken Jr. offensive numbers.

[Danno]

Ok, so by this metric, I'm curious; who else is deserving?

Omar is 9th all time for defensive WAR (credit ml242), is the cutoff somewhere around #2? 7 of those top 10 are in the Hall. I'm guessing not all of them have Ken Jr. offensive numbers.

First, let me say that defensive statistical metrics are inherently faulty; offensive stats are far more reliable. Second, baseball arguments are fun.

Here's the list through Omar. The "+" means a hall of famer.

1. Ozzie Smith+ (19) 44.2
2. Mark Belanger (18) 39.5
3. Brooks Robinson+ (23) 39.1
4. Cal Ripken+ (21) 35.7
5. Joe Tinker+ (15) 34.3
6. Luis Aparicio+ (18) 31.8
7. Rabbit Maranville+ (23) 30.8
8. Ivan Rodriguez+ (21) 29.6
9. Omar Vizquel (24) 29.5

Ozzie (who we've addressed) Belanger couldn't hit worth a damn, not a HoFer, yet he's not all that different than Vizquel (and #2 all time yet not a HoFer!). Brooks was a beast and a good bat. Ripken. IRod. And guys who played 100 years ago. And Aparicio. He's the guy you have to hang your hat on. And he's still ahead of Omar overall, both offensively and defensively.

[BmillsSkier]

First, let me say that defensive statistical metrics are inherently faulty; offensive stats are far more reliable. Second, baseball arguments are fun.

Here's the list through Omar. The "+" means a hall of famer.

1. Ozzie Smith+ (19) 44.2
2. Mark Belanger (18) 39.5
3. Brooks Robinson+ (23) 39.1
4. Cal Ripken+ (21) 35.7
5. Joe Tinker+ (15) 34.3
6. Luis Aparicio+ (18) 31.8
7. Rabbit Maranville+ (23) 30.8
8. Ivan Rodriguez+ (21) 29.6
9. Omar Vizquel (24) 29.5

Ozzie (who we've addressed) Belanger couldn't hit worth a damn, not a HoFer, yet he's not all that different than Vizquel (and #2 all time yet not a HoFer!). Brooks was a beast and a good bat. Ripken. IRod. And guys who played 100 years ago. And Aparicio. He's the guy you have to hang your hat on. And he's still ahead of Omar overall, both offensively and defensively.

Completely agree that baseball arguments are fun. The sport, and the stats, lend themselves to great conversation.

I think what works in Omar's favor now is that he is in this mix with all the juicers and, as Art points out, a sea of otherwise mediocre candidates. What better time than one of the all time greats defensively to get into the hall? Double points if he can follow teammate Thome Run.

[ex-powderbroker]

since you’re both right, we get to have this conversation for at least five years.

hopefully petitte doesn’t fall off the ballot.

better than jack morris
nails in 96 to launch the dynasty
5 rings
winningiest winning pitcher yadda yadda

he wasn’t pedro but when you talk about teams like whitaker / trammel or mantle / maris, hoe many times was he the guy that gave the ball to rivera?

the yanks would not have gotten it done without him, see: burnett, igawa, contreras, rogers, old brown, expired randy johnson etc

[Viva]

So is it the Hall of Offense and related Pitchers now?

Mike Piazza got in. He was a terrible catcher, a terrible clubhouse leader, and not all that good managing his pitchers. But the boy could certainly hit!

[Benny Profane]

But he had a Penthouse pet girlfriend!

[BmillsSkier]

Oof, were all the Playmates taken?

[ex-powderbroker]

Oof, were all the Playmates taken?

let's get these credentials right, she was a playmate.

[Abol98]

I've been awake since 330AM local time. On the upside, we scored tickets for Cubs-Cards in London 2020.

Looks like I'll have to shave down next year's quiver budget...

Just kidding. Kids can eat ramen.

[Timberridge]

Perhaps they can put up a HoF wives/gf's section at Cooperstown? I'd go see that.

[BmillsSkier]

Perhaps they can put up a HoF wives/gf's section at Cooperstown? I'd go see that.

Benny should jump on this as the new wing in his Hall across the street.

Hang a left at Pete Rose’s 3rd wife at the end of the bar and see our new exhibit of exceptional MLB WaGs and other notables.

See if you can dodge Tawny Kitaen’s high heel in our new simulator!

[Danno]

Kate Upton can start planning her display right now.