Leashes for AT, do you use them?

**kootenayskier** · 01-30-2019, 08:15 AM

I use the leashes that come with my G3 Ion LT bindings. I appreciate that they’ll prevent a runaway ski in various low velocity situations, but on the rare occasions (perhaps 5 times in as many years) I’ve ejected uncontrollably at regular backcountry skiing speeds, they’ve broken 100% of the time. I’ve also seen unsecured skis lost into crevasses and drop off ridges into unskiable valleys, so am not inclined to ski without either brakes or leashes.

**hafjell** · 01-30-2019, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by kootenayskier

I use the leashes that come with my G3 Ion LT bindings. I appreciate that they’ll prevent a runaway ski in various low velocity situations, but on the rare occasions (perhaps 5 times in as many years) I’ve ejected uncontrollably at regular backcountry skiing speeds, they’ve broken 100% of the time. I’ve also seen unsecured skis lost into crevasses and drop off ridges into unskiable valleys, so am not inclined to ski without either brakes or leashes.

How would you quantify "in various low velocity situations"?

**kootenayskier** · 01-30-2019, 09:31 AM

Originally Posted by hafjell

How would you quantify "in various low velocity situations"?

The occasional situations where I’ve experienced where leashes have been useful (or where they would have been) include:
Starting to ski, but due to user error not having properly secured my boot in the binding, and so stepping out of a ski on the first turn.
Awkwardly catching and releasing a ski while slowly navigating convoluted ridge-top wind-lips, krummholz, or rocks.
Dropping off a cornice or serac from stand-still, but miscalculating and releasing forward.

**PeachesNCream** · 01-30-2019, 10:07 AM

Soo since the verdict on leashes vs no leashes is about 50/50 maybe the way to go is the breakaway leash? Can anyone confirm that the Dynafit leashes are breakaway? I didn't see anything online about them being breakaway.

Because I'm cheap, anyone try using small zip-tie as a breakaway point? You can get them with 20 or 50 lb rated tensile strength which seems about right. Yeah, they might wear out and get beat-up quickly, but who cares, they cost like a cent.

**auvgeek** · 01-30-2019, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by brundo

Soo since the verdict on leashes vs no leashes is about 50/50 maybe the way to go is the breakaway leash? Can anyone confirm that the Dynafit leashes are breakaway? I didn't see anything online about them being breakaway.

Because I'm cheap, anyone try using small zip-tie as a breakaway point? You can get them with 20 or 50 lb rated tensile strength which seems about right. Yeah, they might wear out and get beat-up quickly, but who cares, they cost like a cent.

Leashes are great in certain situations where brakes would do very little to stop the ski* ... but pow touring isn't one of them. If you're on any kind of heavier binding, I think brakes over leashes make sense.

That said, I have leashes over brakes on all my skis for weight reasons. I like these leashes the best so far: https://skimo.co/atk-kevlar-leash 60 cm elongation, 70 kg breaking force, and weigh 17g. But I haven't taken a fall where my skis came off or been caught in an avalanche yet, though, so I have no idea if that is an appropriate breaking force. I used to have the B&D ones, but they were kind of annoyingly long and fiddle-y.

*e.g, transitioning from skis on pack to skis on feet in steep terrain (after booting or rapping), when skiing slowly in consequential terrain where a brake would do nothing to stop the ski, etc. Mostly low-velocity situations in steep terrain, as was said above.

**PNWbrit** · 01-30-2019, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by brundo

Soo since the verdict

The verdict is you're doing it wrong.

You shouldn't be thinking of using leashes to avoid losing them while going up hill.

**Skeeze** · 01-30-2019, 10:24 AM

Another plug for B&D breakaway leashes. Best combination of safety and functionality I've found.

**mall walker** · 01-30-2019, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by PNWbrit

The verdict is you're doing it wrong.

You shouldn't be thinking of using leashes to avoid losing them while going up hill.

lol yeah

**PeachesNCream** · 01-30-2019, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by adrenalated

No. Roll your ankle downhill to get the skin flat on the snow.
If it's too icy for that get ski crampons or boot.
Even if you are stomping your ski shouldn't release unless you are doing something else wrong. Toe sockets not cleared, toe sockets worn, binding not fully locked, tried to lock the binding but your boot wasn't in properly so it didn't actually lock, etc.

Originally Posted by PNWbrit

The verdict is you're doing it wrong.

You shouldn't be thinking of using leashes to avoid losing them while going up hill.

Originally Posted by mall walker

lol yeah

Originally Posted by PNWbrit

You're going to die.

^ No shit.

If this is happening on a frequent basis you are doing something wrong. Either not clearing snow properly or not latching fully in walk mode.

Since you're new I assume it isn't worn toe sockets... which It could possibly be.

Don't the people you're touring with point out what you're doing incorrectly.

I knew I wasn't that big of a dummy. Here's some people having the same issue: https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...skinning/page2

**adrenalated** · 01-30-2019, 11:24 AM

And you'll notice that people didn't exactly come out of the woodwork saying they have that problem. Just one other JONG.

I know a lot of folks with Kingpins and not one of them (to my knowledge) has ever had a ski come off when sidehilling. I maintain that you're fucking something up.

**auvgeek** · 01-30-2019, 11:52 AM

Maybe get rid of the Kingpins and try the Tecton instead? But yeah, I toured on Kingpins for a bit and never had that problem and don't know anyone else who did. The brakes not staying up and them exploding are well known issues. Toes releasing while locked? Not so much.

**PNWbrit** · 01-30-2019, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by brundo

I knew I wasn't that big of a dummy.

Maybe all of us not having this problem are the ones doing it wrong... interesting.

**t-the-east** · 01-30-2019, 01:37 PM

I’ve never used kingpins, but all my dynafits have 2 up positions. If kingpin is the same, maybe op isn’t fully pulling it into locked position?

**auvgeek** · 01-30-2019, 01:58 PM

Good point. Many normal tech toes take several "clicks" before it gets to fully locked, including the Kingpin.

I also recall reading a paper which said boot sockets are irreversibly scarred (and release easier than the expected release value) after a single forced release from a locked out tech toe.

**Yukonrider** · 01-30-2019, 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by t-the-east

I’ve never used kingpins, but all my dynafits have 2 up positions. If kingpin is the same, maybe op isn’t fully pulling it into locked position?

I'm only admitting this so someone doesn't get hurt.

I was touring with my Kingpins not fully locked, my ski came off twice, I brought them into the house thinking they MUST be broken, examination revealed my error.

There are like 3 or even 4 clicks before they are FULLY locked and in that position they can't come unlocked by your boot even if you fall forward like an idiot, it actually takes a fair bit of force to get them there. If you bring the ski inside and clip your boot in you can examine the lever and see where it goes into fully locked mode.

Disclaimer: First tech bindings, and I am an idiot.

**mall walker** · 01-30-2019, 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by PNWbrit

Maybe all of us not having this problem are the ones doing it wrong... interesting.

lol

**PNW_Skier206** · 01-30-2019, 03:24 PM

As others have said I think it’s highly likely you aren’t fully locking the toes (or doing something else wrong). If I was releasing out of locked toes consistently I would never use them again. Hopefully you are only skiing very low consequence lines.

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**reckless toboggan** · 01-30-2019, 03:34 PM

Originally Posted by brundo

Can anyone confirm that the Dynafit leashes are breakaway? I didn't see anything online about them being breakaway.

Originally Posted by DolphinSki

From what I understand, Dynafit and B&D leashes will both breakaway with the force of an avalanche.

B&D YES. They use a replaceable fuse and are designed to break in avy forces. 40# or 60# available.

...

Dyanfit NO.

I called them and had a long conversation. Dyanfit said they do not have a fuse, and are fixed leashes. Not designed to break. I also talked extensively with a major dynafit dealer in the US. They checked with Dynafit, and confirmed.

...

So either the company who manufacturers Dynafit, ie. Dynafit, and a major and very technical touring retailer have no idea what they're talking about, or DolphinSki has some very special information.

**PeachesNCream** · 01-30-2019, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by auvgeek

Leashes are great in certain situations where brakes would do very little to stop the ski* ... but pow touring isn't one of them. If you're on any kind of heavier binding, I think brakes over leashes make sense.

That said, I have leashes over brakes on all my skis for weight reasons. I like these leashes the best so far: https://skimo.co/atk-kevlar-leash 60 cm elongation, 70 kg breaking force, and weigh 17g. But I haven't taken a fall where my skis came off or been caught in an avalanche yet, though, so I have no idea if that is an appropriate breaking force. I used to have the B&D ones, but they were kind of annoyingly long and fiddle-y.

*e.g, transitioning from skis on pack to skis on feet in steep terrain (after booting or rapping), when skiing slowly in consequential terrain where a brake would do nothing to stop the ski, etc. Mostly low-velocity situations in steep terrain, as was said above.

70 kg (154 lb) breaking force?

That'd be enough to hang some skiers by the boot, esp female skiers. 154 lb seems like it'd be plenty strong enough to come back and whack ya in the head or be an avi anchor

**galibier_numero_un** · 01-30-2019, 06:14 PM

Originally Posted by brundo

70 kg (154 lb) breaking force?

That'd be enough to hang some skiers by the boot, esp female skiers. 154 lb seems like it'd be plenty strong enough to come back and whack ya in the head or be an avi anchor

An appropriate breaking strength is where I get wrapped around the axle with this. Avy forces are obvoiusly brutal, but like SFB did, I sliced my noggin a few decades ago (prehistoric times when brakes were the hot new thing). Because of this, I've been real shy with my years long on/off leash experiment.

----

To the poster who mentioned cable ties (zip ties are for closing up your loaf of bread), I've found they vary greatly in quality. Using them for their intended purpose (anchoring cables), I've had some where the teeth barely hold - breaking during tightening.

Then, there's UV degradation to consider. If I were inclined to experiment with this, I'd get some which are specified for rooftop solar installations. Mouser Electronics has 'em.

After you arrive at an appropriate strength, let all of us who don't wanna be crash test dummies how it works out.

... Thom

Sent from my LM-G710VM using Tapatalk

**HukuTa_KydecHuk** · 01-30-2019, 06:22 PM

I totally denied leashes, but since I lost my beloved Bibby and then digged 300sq meters of fresh pow and still never found it... I think I reconsidered them. At least for powder touring

**auvgeek** · 01-30-2019, 06:24 PM

Originally Posted by brundo

70 kg (154 lb) breaking force?

That'd be enough to hang some skiers by the boot, esp female skiers. 154 lb seems like it'd be plenty strong enough to come back and whack ya in the head or be an avi anchor

well, it’s kind of a misnomer right, cuz force is measured in Newtons not kg. But I'm assuming they did a static test and it broke with 70 kg hanging off it = 686N. I’m sure one of our resident mechanical engineers -- which I guess I technically am, but don’t have much experience with tensile strength under dynamic loads -- could shed more light, but I don’t know offhand how much force or accelerations are typically experienced in any avy or fall situation. Do you?

The hard part is you want the leash to have enough strength to withstand repeatedly dropping the ski in freefall (otherwise, what's the point of a leash?), but fail below the typical forces experience in an avy or released fall.

If you're just pow touring, maybe you don't care so much about the leash being able to catch a ski in freefall, so a little cable tie would be fine?

**PNWbrit** · 01-30-2019, 06:56 PM

Originally Posted by brundo

That'd be enough to hang some skiers by the boot,

There are instances of people hanging in crevasse falls by correctly locked tech toes.

**Quadzilla** · 01-31-2019, 11:22 AM

I use leashes 100% in the BC and for me the reason is obvious, lose a ski in deep snow way back in you might die. So, IMO, brakes are a resort gimmick so maybe if you crash on firm snow your ski might stop before it kills someone. Personally, I have been in two situations were a member of my tour group ejected in deep snow and in one instance it took hours to find it. Both times impossible to hike out without skis.

I use B&D leashes, you never have to take them off except at the TH. As far as Dynafit leashes, my wife likes them. We created a breakaway with rubber O rings attached at boot. What size O ring, you will figure that out.

**doebedoe** · 01-31-2019, 11:26 AM

I use zipties as breakaway points. No idea if its effective or not. They don't have a particularly high breaking point, and I have popped one when I snow-snaked myself. Seems to works, I'm sure they degrade etc. But I'd rather have something that breaks away too easily than not easily enough.

I've wanted to grab the leashes auvgeek mentioned -- but the ATK ones are never in stock.