Page 9 of 10 FirstFirst ... 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 LastLast
Results 201 to 225 of 231
  1. #201
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    12,037
    But, what else can be done to prevent more tourists from riding where they shouldn't with ZERO rescue/recovery equipment?


    People who have such strong opinions about avalanche risk and recovery should take a fucking L1 class before thinking they are smarter than an entire fucking industry of really dedicated folks.
    FIFY

  2. #202
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Simi Valley, CA
    Posts
    5,200
    Quote Originally Posted by SumJongGuy View Post
    I never said that a smart phone app would be better or ever preferable to a dedicated beacon. I just think it would be better than nothing at all if such a feature was automatically enabled with the popular ski vert apps for normal, recreational skiers who accidentally find themselves under snow in terrain they didn't realize was unstable. There is a huge difference between betting your life on an obviously sub standard piece of equipment and having something that might help out just in case.
    Sorry but you're looking at it wrong. Even if you're wearing the best beacon in the world, you can't rely on patrol to mobilize, find you, and dig you out quickly enough. You just don't have that much time. Sure, you might get lucky, but the odds are definitely not in your favor.

    It's 99% up to your companions to rescue you if buried. Do you and your buddies carry Recco detectors? No, so Recco won't help keep you alive. Do you trust them to save you with smartphones that aren't designed for this specialized function, with apps that don't exist?

    Here's what is realistic when skiing consequential terrain, even in-bounds: everyone in your crew wears a beacon, carries a shovel and probe, and has basic companion rescue skills. They're all you've got. Everything else is luck* or recovery if the day takes a bad turn.

    (* Yes, an airbag or Avalung might improve the luck element a bit, but that's not this discussion.)

  3. #203
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    The Bull City
    Posts
    4,362
    Quote Originally Posted by Meadow Skipper View Post
    You should really just stop.
    Why are you always so opposed to discussing things Bob? I'm asking legit questions others might also have who don't already have experience in this area of skiing inbounds (or OB) territory where risk may be greater than they thought for whatever reason.
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  4. #204
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Sonoma & Truckee
    Posts
    11,074
    You're trying to answer a question that doesn't need to be asked.

  5. #205
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    The Bull City
    Posts
    4,362
    Quote Originally Posted by 1000-oaks View Post

    It's 99% up to your companions to rescue you if buried. Do you and your buddies carry Recco detectors? No, so Recco won't help keep you alive. Do you trust them to save you with smartphones that aren't designed for this specialized function, with apps that don't exist?

    Here's what is realistic when skiing consequential terrain, even in-bounds: everyone in your crew wears a beacon, carries a shovel and probe, and has basic companion rescue skills. They're all you've got. Everything else is luck* or recovery if the day takes a bad turn.

    (* Yes, an airbag or Avalung might improve the luck element a bit, but that's not this discussion.)
    Thanks for the thoughtful and informative response. A big part of what would make a phone app useful (if not absolutely impossible) is that the rest of the posse could all turn theirs to find in that event. I agree though the odds of people knowing how to do that are low even if the capability existed.

    But, because it's been deemed impossible for a ski app to send a decent pusle while on and even if it could nobody would know how to turn theirs to seek when needed it will never happen.

    And, because according to the collective here, there is no better solution to not requiring people to wear actual tested equipment anywhere but Bridger or educate folks better we can just blame Darwin every time something like this happens. which is pretty much what a lot of you seem to be doing rather than suggest changes or improvements to things as is.

    I have a hunch that due to climate change, the freeze/thaw and rain vs snow cycles are getting a lot more chaotic, making management and control even more difficult going forward.
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  6. #206
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    12,037
    I am unaware of any phone app or any smart phone having any of the capabilities that you seem to think exist.

  7. #207
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Posts
    10,901
    Quote Originally Posted by SumJongGuy View Post
    Why are you always so opposed to discussing things Bob? I'm asking legit questions others might also have who don't already have experience in this area of skiing inbounds (or OB) territory where risk may be greater than they thought for whatever reason.
    Look, I’m open to discussing things, but you’ve been told, by informed people, why a phone avy app is technically and socially infeasible and impractical, but you reacted by shrilly mocking and accusing those people of being uncaring and/or ignorant of the need. And you are wrong to do that on both counts.
    And I guess that I just don't know

  8. #208
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    YetiMan
    Posts
    10,789
    I skied the living shit out of all that terrain in all kinds of conditions before I even knew what a beacon was. You might hit your head on a tree. You might get buried.
    We may someday reach a stage where the heat-seeking drone just zips from the patrol shack and hauls ass to hover right over the avy victim. Honestly, with respect to the deceased and what must be some heartbroken and exhausted tsv patrollers, I'm not 100% sure that's the world I want to live in.

    Somebody go find the porron and pour that bitch out for the fellas eh?

  9. #209
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    The Bull City
    Posts
    4,362
    Quote Originally Posted by Not bunion View Post
    I am unaware of any phone app or any smart phone having any of the capabilities that you seem to think exist.
    I know it doesn't exist. I'm saying it might be useful if someday it can be done.
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  10. #210
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    The Bull City
    Posts
    4,362
    Quote Originally Posted by Meadow Skipper View Post
    Look, I’m open to discussing things, but you’ve been told, by informed people, why a phone avy app is technically and socially infeasible and impractical, but you reacted by shrilly mocking and accusing those people of being uncaring and/or ignorant of the need. And you are wrong to do that on both counts.
    What, if anything can be done to increase the awareness and increase the number of people procuring and using better equipment when and where they should? I like Bridger's model. Any thoughts on deploying that elsewhere? Nobody seems to be suggesting that we work to improve the in bounds terrain precautions. Certainly seems uncaring to just mock and talk down to me for suggesting we look for solutions.
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  11. #211
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Sonoma & Truckee
    Posts
    11,074
    Ever had your iPhone brick on you in cold temps? (There’s a reason beacons don’t use lithium ion batteries)

  12. #212
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    The Bull City
    Posts
    4,362
    Quote Originally Posted by TahoeJ View Post
    Ever had your iPhone brick on you in cold temps? (There’s a reason beacons don’t use lithium ion batteries)
    I hate iPhones.. Android guy. But ya, there is no doubt that dedicated beacons would be best.. But can we some up with ways to get as many people as possible to carry them in places like where this happened?
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  13. #213
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Posts
    10,901
    Quote Originally Posted by ill-advised strategy View Post
    Somebody go find the porron and pour that bitch out for the fellas eh?
    I wonder if they still put those out now that the Blake’s have sold. I haven’t thought it about for a while. That would be a great move.
    And I guess that I just don't know

  14. #214
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Posts
    10,901
    Quote Originally Posted by SumJongGuy View Post
    Certainly seems uncaring to just mock and talk down to me for suggesting we look for solutions.
    Calling me uncaring is a solid demonstration of cluelessness on your part.
    And I guess that I just don't know

  15. #215
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Not Brooklyn
    Posts
    6,101
    Quote Originally Posted by SumJongGuy View Post
    Certainly seems uncaring to just mock and talk down to me for suggesting we look for solutions.
    Sounds like you should be watching Sesame Street instead of whatever the fuck it is you think you're doing here.

  16. #216
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Posts
    10,901
    And I guess that I just don't know

  17. #217
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    SLC
    Posts
    4,423
    Quote Originally Posted by I've seen black diamonds! View Post
    Sounds like you should be watching Sesame Street instead of whatever the fuck it is you think you're doing here.
    qft

  18. #218
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    28,757
    Quote Originally Posted by SumJongGuy View Post
    I know it doesn't exist. I'm saying it might be useful if someday it can be done.
    i got an idea for ya.
    so let’s keep a phone as a camera
    and let a transceiver be the beacon
    this way we’re all on the same page
    .

  19. #219
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    BS
    Posts
    476
    Quote Originally Posted by SumJongGuy View Post
    Nobody seems to be suggesting that we work to improve the in bounds terrain precautions.
    No one is suggesting it because ski patrols and mountain ops already do this every day, all winter, every winter.

    They even think about it in the summer, too. Write papers on it and go to conferences and shit. Not just re-ask the same question after educated, experienced professionals give them an honest, accurate answer why something won't work, which is what you're doing.

    We all love chewing the fat, but this is not a new topic in the industry, and there is a solid conclusion that cell phones should not and will not replace a beacon. Everyone has said it, and Bunion has said it best, and not just once:

    People who have such strong opinions about avalanche risk and recovery should take a fucking L1 class before thinking they are smarter than an entire fucking industry of really dedicated folks.
    With proper mitigation of the avalanche hazard it is generally safe > 99% of the time.

    It is skiing, even without the danger of avalanches, skiing on slopes steeper than 33 degrees is risky and there is always a chance that you could be hurt/killed.

    No one forces you to ski that terrain, it is a decision that you make knowing there is risk involved. I willingly accept that risk and do not expect that it can ever be 100% safe. I do get concerned when people who have never done avalanche mitigation work decide that the Industry needs to fix something that already works very well. Can Avalanche mitigation be safer? Yes. And there are a lot of really smart people who have that as their focus in life.

    Meanwhile, maybe it would be best for people to keep in mind that if they want to ski steep and snow covered terrain no one is forcing them to do so.

    We're all glad you're in this discussion, but you're proving that you're out of your element, Donny. Read more, learn more, listen more, go skiing more.
    I think the potato gun proved the stability.

  20. #220
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    9,300ft
    Posts
    17,723
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  21. #221
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    38
    I'm a pro patroller at an area that has an active avalanche mitigation program as well as inbounds avalanche terrain. While I have never seen a post control slide bury a guest, I have had several instances where guests have gone into tree wells on deep days and if they were wearing a beacon the recovery time would have been MUCH quicker.

  22. #222
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    The Bull City
    Posts
    4,362
    Quote Originally Posted by ODHGABFE View Post
    No one is suggesting it because ski patrols and mountain ops already do this every day, all winter, every winter.

    They even think about it in the summer, too. Write papers on it and go to conferences and shit. Not just re-ask the same question after educated, experienced professionals give them an honest, accurate answer why something won't work, which is what you're doing.

    We all love chewing the fat, but this is not a new topic in the industry, and there is a solid conclusion that cell phones should not and will not replace a beacon. Everyone has said it, and Bunion has said it best, and not just once:
    Thanks I think I get that..
    Well, last comment here most likely. To be crystal clear, I've said countless times that I'm not suggesting that a phone app would ever be superior or even comparable to a piece of equipment designed specifically for this purpose. What I suggested was that even a half assed pinger running with the popular ski apps many tourists now use might save someone if their friends could turn theirs to seek/find when the unexpected event happens.. and that odds of them knowing how to do so would be low.

    Is the main problem here that too many people would use the half assed background phone app as a substitute or excuse NOT to procure the real equipment necessary and venture in to a lot riskier terrain with only the phone? So the likelihood of fools thinking they don't need a beacon in regularly risky terrain and getting in trouble outweighs the utility that a half assed peripheral platform might save someone who wouldn't likely be under the impression that they need anything at all in that regard??
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  23. #223
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    OOTAH
    Posts
    2,479
    Quote Originally Posted by SumJongGuy View Post
    Thanks I think I get that..
    Well, last comment here most likely. To be crystal clear, I've said countless times that I'm not suggesting that a phone app would ever be superior or even comparable to a piece of equipment designed specifically for this purpose. What I suggested was that even a half assed pinger running with the popular ski apps many tourists now use might save someone if their friends could turn theirs to seek/find when the unexpected event happens.. and that odds of them knowing how to do so would be low.

    Is the main problem here that too many people would use the half assed background phone app as a substitute or excuse NOT to procure the real equipment necessary and venture in to a lot riskier terrain with only the phone? So the likelihood of fools thinking they don't need a beacon in regularly risky terrain and getting in trouble outweighs the utility that a half assed peripheral platform might save someone who wouldn't likely be under the impression that they need anything at all in that regard??
    Are you still fucking talking?
    Samuel L. Jackson as Jules Winnfield: Oh, I'm sorry. Did I break your concentration?

  24. #224
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    bottom of the hobacks
    Posts
    484
    Quote Originally Posted by Meadow Skipper View Post
    Thanks for sharing this

    Vibes to all those involved.
    Quote Originally Posted by The SnowShow View Post
    Keystone is the new Snowbird

  25. #225
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    The Bull City
    Posts
    4,362
    Quote Originally Posted by teleee View Post
    Are you still fucking talking?
    Quote Originally Posted by SumJongGuy View Post
    Thanks I think I get that..
    Well, last comment here most likely.
    See above
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •