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  1. #251
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    I mounted some Xenics with 95mm brakes on a pair of ZG 95s, they have some extra width when deployed but actually contact the topsheet when deploying.

    There wasn't anything about heel gap in the box, I think I saw 1mm somewhere, is that correct?

    I think this is going to be a fun setup.

    "High risers are for people with fused ankles, jongs and dudes who are too fat to see their dick or touch their toes.
    Prove me wrong."
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  2. #252
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    Heel gap number is correct. I eyeball so there's the tiniest of gaps

    Finally released the Xenic by splatting off a pillow skiing inbounds at RMR. Heel released as I came up short on a double and tomahawked. Brakes held ski uphill, I went downhill. Nice to know they worked.

    Till then the Xenics were unnoticeable skiing inbounds pow. Solid and stayed on even in speed checks.

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  3. #253
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    608
    Still really considering Xenic/Tecton combo mounts, with inserts for the toes (and possibly a toe shim for the Xenic) and a single wood screw mount for the heel track with the ability to just worm screw the Xenic or Tecton heel on and off as needed.

    Anybody done this successfully in the field yet? Is it feasible or a pipe dream?

  4. #254
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    That's my game plan, have Vipecs and Tectons on 3-ski touring quiver, so only need to install inserts at the toes to be able to use a single pair of Xenics on any of them.

    Guys could get a few pair of Xenics or Vipecs, whichever are cheapest and mix and match.
    Last edited by 1000-oaks; 12-22-2019 at 11:04 PM.

  5. #255
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    Feb 2012
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    Thanks 1000-oaks. Keep us informed on how it works out for you. I want to go this route on a 2-3 ski quiver of touring skis if it makes sense.

  6. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by DGamms View Post
    Still really considering Xenic/Tecton combo mounts, with inserts for the toes (and possibly a toe shim for the Xenic) and a single wood screw mount for the heel track with the ability to just worm screw the Xenic or Tecton heel on and off as needed.

    Anybody done this successfully in the field yet? Is it feasible or a pipe dream?
    Does in the field count as in the garage? Because yeah then. I've got Ravens mounted to go back and forth and have used them with both.


  7. #257
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    Feb 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by margotron View Post
    Does in the field count as in the garage? Because yeah then. I've got Ravens mounted to go back and forth and have used them with both.
    Ha! I wasn’t very clear there, eh?

    Yes, I meant has anyone done the inserts for toes and single heel track mount and actually skied them. Not has anyone tried to switch from Xenic to Tecton while out on the snow.

    How’s the setup working out? Pretty fast and painless to switch over? Besides the weight difference on the up, how different do the two bindings feel/perform?

  8. #258
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    For those of you shimming this binding - what are the net effects of doing this vs. adjusting the forward lean on your boots to be more upright?
    Currently skiing in Hawx XTD's with 15* lean, but they can be adjusted to 13*.

  9. #259
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    Well for one thing, adjusting your boots affects your dorsiflexion and this might help or hurt depending on your flexibility, etc.

    So, if you had limited dorsiflexion, you might want to start with reducing the boot's forward lean.

    I'm not saying this is the best solution (interested in other's comments) but it's the easiest thing to try.

    I think both methods will feel different and you'll only know by comparing.

    When I finally got modern boots a few years ago, the combination of flat stance (reducing the ramp angle) and minimal forward lean was a revelation in the context of modern skis.

    ... Thom
    Last edited by galibier_numero_un; 01-07-2020 at 07:38 PM.
    Galibier Design
    crafting technology in service of music

  10. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by EricB View Post
    For those of you shimming this binding - what are the net effects of doing this vs. adjusting the forward lean on your boots to be more upright?
    Shimming the binding changes the ramp of the bootboard/sole, while adjusting forward lean changes the angle of the upper cuff relative to same. The two can be related but are not the same.

  11. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by DGamms View Post
    Ha! I wasn’t very clear there, eh?

    Yes, I meant has anyone done the inserts for toes and single heel track mount and actually skied them. Not has anyone tried to switch from Xenic to Tecton while out on the snow.

    How’s the setup working out? Pretty fast and painless to switch over? Besides the weight difference on the up, how different do the two bindings feel/perform?
    Tectons way to fucking heavy. switchover is painlessin the garage. Ski pretty good! havent had them on a groomer, will report back this weekend.

    Question (for myself I guess): keep the xenic toe and tecton heel? kinda like a Fristchi Kingpin! Ha.

    Xenic Toe: 105g measured
    Tecton Heel: 360g measured w/ brakes (vs xenic 191g)

    Total Xenicton = 465g


  12. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by margotron View Post
    ... Question (for myself I guess): keep the xenic toe and tecton heel? kinda like a Fristchi Kingpin! Ha.

    Xenic Toe: 105g measured
    Tecton Heel: 360g measured w/ brakes (vs xenic 191g)

    Total Xenicton = 465g
    Might as well lock the Xenic toe out all the time while you're at it (no lateral release designed into the Xenic toe anyhow, and none in the Tecton heel either)

    ... Thom
    Last edited by galibier_numero_un; 01-08-2020 at 02:51 PM.
    Galibier Design
    crafting technology in service of music

  13. #263
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    ^ Yeah, Xenicton would have no horizontal release whatsoever, might as well lock it in even more, lol.

    Was actually considering the Tecton toe with the Xenic heel (which would need a shim). It could release from either end, so it would be safe but might be mushy to ski.
    Last edited by 1000-oaks; 01-08-2020 at 07:37 AM.

  14. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1000-oaks View Post
    ^ Yeah, Xenicton would have no horizontal release whatsoever, might as well lock it in even more, lol.

    Was actually considering the Tecton toe with the Xenic heel (which would need a shim). It could release from either end, so it would be safe but might be mushy to ski.
    If you did that I think the move would be to max out the release value on the Tecton toe. I'd be curious to hear how it skied. For a guy like me (150 lbs, intermediate skier), I actually think that might be a workable solution.

  15. #265
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    Tecton Toe with Xenic heel is essentially a Knee Binding, no?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ernest_Hemingway View Post
    I realize there is not much hope for a bullfighting forum. I understand that most of you would prefer to discuss the ingredients of jacket fabrics than the ingredients of a brave man. I know nothing of the former. But the latter is made of courage, and skill, and grace in the presence of the possibility of death. If someone could make a jacket of those three things it would no doubt be the most popular and prized item in all of your closets.

  16. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by LightRanger View Post
    Tecton Toe with Xenic heel is essentially a Knee Binding, no?
    That's my take as well. I recall Lou doing a mashup of a Vipec or Tecton toe with some sort of tech heel that had traditional lateral release. His confidence level was low. Assuming he's correct, then the reason for doing this would be to introduce lateral release at the toe into a lighter setup (and not to simulate a Knee binding).

    Quote Originally Posted by 1000-oaks View Post
    ^ Yeah, Xenicton would have no horizontal release whatsoever, might as well lock it in even more, lol.

    Was actually considering the Tecton toe with the Xenic heel (which would need a shim). It could release from either end, so it would be safe but might be mushy to ski.
    Seems to me, your only chance of getting this to work would be to dial the heel's lateral setting to the max.

    My guess is that this strategy would only have a chance of working if you're a 6-8 DIN skier - meaning that the lateral setting at the heel (when set to max) would be a few DIN higher than your normal lateral release requirements.

    Let's get some focus here (Lee's stoke inducing shots)

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeLau View Post
    Heel gap number is correct. I eyeball so there's the tiniest of gaps

    Finally released the Xenic by splatting off a pillow skiing inbounds at RMR. Heel released as I came up short on a double and tomahawked. Brakes held ski uphill, I went downhill. Nice to know they worked.

    Till then the Xenics were unnoticeable skiing inbounds pow. Solid and stayed on even in speed checks.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    ... Thom
    Galibier Design
    crafting technology in service of music

  17. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by galibier_numero_un View Post
    That's my take as well. I recall Lou doing a mashup of a Vipec or Tecton toe with some sort of tech heel that had traditional lateral release. His confidence level was low. Assuming he's correct, then the reason for doing this would be to introduce lateral release at the toe into a lighter setup (and not to simulate a Knee binding).


    Seems to me, your only chance of getting this to work would be to dial the heel's lateral setting to the max.
    Would you care to expand on why you think that? Are you concerned about pre-release, release or partial release/elasticity? Maybe I'm just not giving Lou enough credit by not assuming he's correct--perhaps we need a link? Kidding.

    If both toe and heel have adequate preload and stiffness to not flex laterally in non-release situations the elastic performance could still be weird, but otherwise the mechanics of dual lateral release don't create strange free body diagrams or anything. Are you looking at it in that context or otherwise?

  18. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by tgapp View Post
    If you did that I think the move would be to max out the release value on the Tecton toe. I'd be curious to hear how it skied. For a guy like me (150 lbs, intermediate skier), I actually think that might be a workable solution.
    Actually, leave the Tecton/Vipec toe alone and max out the horizontal release on the Xenic heel. You're basically trying to turn it into a lighter Vipec heel, which has no horizontal release. If it wasn't for rotating the heel for climb mode, you could even replace the horizontal release spring with a plug to lock it out. But the heel still needs to turn, so maxing the horizontal setting is the best you can do to create that solid feel you get from the Vipec heel.

    Probably not worth messing with though, with the added weight of a shim under the Xenic heel you're probably nearly the weight of the Vipec heel.

  19. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    Would you care to expand on why you think that? Are you concerned about pre-release, release or partial release/elasticity? Maybe I'm just not giving Lou enough credit by not assuming he's correct--perhaps we need a link? Kidding.

    If both toe and heel have adequate preload and stiffness to not flex laterally in non-release situations the elastic performance could still be weird, but otherwise the mechanics of dual lateral release don't create strange free body diagrams or anything. Are you looking at it in that context or otherwise?
    This is just extrapolation on my part (not an informed engineering decision). Given the mixed results the Knee binding has received (from a retention perspective), who are we to "ghetto engineer" a Knee binding and expect it to hold you in when it's supposed to and release when it should?

    Even I were interested in such a binding, I'm not a fan of testing out the concept and experiencing unintended ejections ;-)

    ... Thom
    Galibier Design
    crafting technology in service of music

  20. #270
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    I can certainly appreciate the desire not to be the test subject. On the other hand, I'm sure you can appreciate that one product's failure to execute does not necessarily extend to all (or perhaps even any) others that share one design attribute with it.

    Having read the knee binding guy's report some years ago with an understanding of the physics it represents I can definitely see the value of a binding that holds perfectly still until it's time to move, but allows movement at either end. There shouldn't be a need to jack up the lateral release at either end (although there's an argument for increasing both slightly) to retain the boot unless the binding isn't holding stiff under skiing forces. It's not like one end of the binding somehow softens the other: if one end gives prematurely it's a problem at that end. Which just begs the question: are you guys saying the Xenic heel stiffens (for normal skiing) as the heel's release value increases? Because that's hard to reconcile with Lee's description of being unnoticeable skiing.

  21. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    I can certainly appreciate the desire not to be the test subject. On the other hand, I'm sure you can appreciate that one product's failure to execute does not necessarily extend to all (or perhaps even any) others that share one design attribute with it.

    Having read the knee binding guy's report some years ago with an understanding of the physics it represents I can definitely see the value of a binding that holds perfectly still until it's time to move, but allows movement at either end. There shouldn't be a need to jack up the lateral release at either end (although there's an argument for increasing both slightly) to retain the boot unless the binding isn't holding stiff under skiing forces. It's not like one end of the binding somehow softens the other: if one end gives prematurely it's a problem at that end. Which just begs the question: are you guys saying the Xenic heel stiffens (for normal skiing) as the heel's release value increases? Because that's hard to reconcile with Lee's description of being unnoticeable skiing.
    I'll leave at this ... there are quite a few reports of the Knee binding not working as advertised (search this forum).

    One has to assume some reasonably competent engineers took a crack at this. I ain't no stinkin' engineer, and the added degrees of freedom confuse my tiny brain. Ergo, who am I to think I can make a Frankenbinding that was never designed with this in mind to work - even if I thought it was a worthwhile use of my time? Might as well consider trying to add 4 wheel drive to a Porsche by cannibalizing parts off an Audi.

    The Knee binding guy may be a better salesman than he is an engineer. Maybe not ...

    @1000-oaks (post #245 in this thread) commented that the Xenic's retention pattern may be stiffer in the first few degrees of travel.

    ... Thom
    Last edited by galibier_numero_un; 01-09-2020 at 02:51 PM.
    Galibier Design
    crafting technology in service of music

  22. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    I can certainly appreciate the desire not to be the test subject. On the other hand, I'm sure you can appreciate that one product's failure to execute does not necessarily extend to all (or perhaps even any) others that share one design attribute with it.

    Having read the knee binding guy's report some years ago with an understanding of the physics it represents I can definitely see the value of a binding that holds perfectly still until it's time to move, but allows movement at either end. There shouldn't be a need to jack up the lateral release at either end (although there's an argument for increasing both slightly) to retain the boot unless the binding isn't holding stiff under skiing forces. It's not like one end of the binding somehow softens the other: if one end gives prematurely it's a problem at that end. Which just begs the question: are you guys saying the Xenic heel stiffens (for normal skiing) as the heel's release value increases? Because that's hard to reconcile with Lee's description of being unnoticeable skiing.
    I think the concern is that if you have a bit of lateral elasticity in the heel AND the toe the binding might feel slightly sloppy. From a hand test, the xenic heel is noticeably more resistant to turning when the release value is increased, but it's hard to say how much the initial resistance to turning changes.

  23. #273
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    I guess the reason I'm slow to think the Frankneebinding (tm) would be a problem is that I find the Vipec Evo toe to have no noticeable movement until it's very close to release. Which implies that if the Xenic heel is acceptably stiff then the combo wouldn't be noticeably worse than the Xenic itself.

    After rereading Thousand-Oaks' post I can see where stiffening the Xenic heel could be desirable. Thanks Thom! I am an engineer and it tends to screw with my ability to know what the right starting point is for technical discussions. Reg the Kneebinding, I don't want to cast aspersions, but I find that more often than not a good idea fails at execution--in other words, it's not that there's "a reason" for it to fail as often as there are a lot of reasons and some of them get overlooked by the guy with the new idea. Trying out two components that have been shown to work seems less risky in some ways (assuming a good bench test, obviously).

  24. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by galibier_numero_un View Post
    This is just extrapolation on my part (not an informed engineering decision). Given the mixed results the Knee binding has received (from a retention perspective), who are we to "ghetto engineer" a Knee binding and expect it to hold you in when it's supposed to and release when it should?

    Even I were interested in such a binding, I'm not a fan of testing out the concept and experiencing unintended ejections ;-)

    ... Thom
    This.

    Sent from my SM-A505W using Tapatalk
    Goal: ski in the 2018/19 season

  25. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    I guess the reason I'm slow to think the Frankneebinding (tm) would be a problem is that I find the Vipec Evo toe to have no noticeable movement until it's very close to release. Which implies that if the Xenic heel is acceptably stiff then the combo wouldn't be noticeably worse than the Xenic itself.

    After rereading Thousand-Oaks' post I can see where stiffening the Xenic heel could be desirable. Thanks Thom! I am an engineer and it tends to screw with my ability to know what the right starting point is for technical discussions. Reg the Kneebinding, I don't want to cast aspersions, but I find that more often than not a good idea fails at execution--in other words, it's not that there's "a reason" for it to fail as often as there are a lot of reasons and some of them get overlooked by the guy with the new idea. Trying out two components that have been shown to work seems less risky in some ways (assuming a good bench test, obviously).
    Yup, we've seen lots of ways to fail, and execution is certainly one of them.

    ... Thom
    Galibier Design
    crafting technology in service of music

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