The impact of soaring season pass sales on ski and snowboard participation rates.

[raisingarizona13]

Why do we want people to catch the bug? So the slopes will be more crowded? I think that skiers need to be more selfish. Honestly, people always talk about increasing skiing numbers, increasing access, lowering the cost, but why? So you can stand in longer lines to ski bumped out groomers? F that!

It is like I70 here in CO. Everyone always talks about improving it so traffic will get better. But why? So more people can get to our town and crowd the place up? NO! I70 is the best thing ever the way it is! I think we should collapse the tunnel and make people drive over LL pass.

BTW it is only $839 a day for a private lesson at Beaver Creek. That's cheep!

My point is, let's say these huge resorts, with tons of infrastructure went out of business someday. I think it'd be kinda nice. I could just skin up and ski pow all day long without 10 million people around. I'd still be here. Maybe all the tourons would find something better to do, like go to the beach and eat fried shrimp.

Sorry, I always get a little surly this time of year.

They are coming no matter what. People sure like making babies and we won't slow down until we are forced to. It's probably best to be prepared to manage it all before things get out of control but I hear ya, I'm not a huge fan of the American capitalist belief that for a business to be considered successful it needs to be growing every year. I think maintainable sounds nice.

[Name Redacted]

Try living in the Northeast after two inches of rain in the mountains a few days ago.

No thanks.

[dufferdan]

All I'm hearing is excuses. If you like to ski enough, you'll make it happen. Cost isn't a hurdle, if you stopped buying other useless shit, you'll have a quiver of skis and ski 60 days a year no problem. All about priorities.

And for the record, I hope the sport starts to die off a little. Maybe it becomes more exclusive. Maybe only rich people can afford to do it. Slopes being a little less crowded would be nice. I'll still be out there. Fuck all this inclusiveness shit.

If all my kids had loved skiing, it would have been 30 -40 days a year. They get into other sports, parents go where they are pulled a bit. We had to compromise. As it was, most years post 2000 I still managed to get at least 25-30 in. Not bad for 75 hour a week job and three kids.



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[charles martel]

Try living in the Northeast after two inches of rain in the mountains a few days ago.

As an upstate NYer, spot on, Benny.

This thread is going the way of ES.

As for those who argue the overall numbers and any decline in them don't matter, think of systems theory and a system shrinking.

And, as we mentioned early in this thread, well before Modern Skiing was mentioned by someone who clearly didn't read the start of the thread, ,above all, it's the cost. Real wages have declined over that past decades. Underemployment rules today's economy. Many average families with kids don't have the disposable income to introduce their kids to skiing and certainly cannot move near a destination resort.




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[Name Redacted]

As an upstate NYer, spot on, Benny.

This thread is going the way of ES.

As for those who argue the overall numbers and any decline in them don't matter, think of systems theory and a system shrinking.

And, as we mentioned early in this thread, well before Modern Skiing was mentioned by someone who clearly didn't read the start of the thread, ,above all, it's the cost. Real wages have declined over that past decades. Underemployment rules today's economy. Many average families with kids don't have the disposable income to introduce their kids to skiing and certainly cannot move near a destination resort.




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You realize that you guys just live in a shitty part of the country right?

[charles martel]

You realize that you guys just live in a shitty part of the country right?

Adhominem paired with a falsehood.

Not true.

Fuck off.

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[dufferdan]

As for those who argue the overall numbers and any decline in them don't matter, think of systems theory and a system shrinking.

And, as we mentioned early in this thread, well before Modern Skiing was mentioned by someone who clearly didn't read the start of the thread, ,above all, it's the cost. Real wages have declined over that past decades. Underemployment rules today's economy. Many average families with kids don't have the disposable income to introduce their kids to skiing and certainly cannot move near a destination resort.




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Very true.

The real estate drive was key to getting resorts built post 1970, Whistler under Intrawest was one model. Once the land base was built out, W-B went up for sale as the owners headed for better financial returns. Fortress bought it and then went belly-up when the returns on operations weren’t enough to sustain the resort and cover the high yield debt costs. Capital for maintenance, construction and expansion follows the most attractive risk adjusted returns. Ski resort operations are highly capital intensive ( maintenance, machinery, and labour) and returns typically are low. If ever at all positive. So risk is high, given weather dependency. The risk -return ratio of a purely operational ski resort, no real estate, is very high and less attractive to capital.

North American population growth is only positive due to immigration and birth rates among first generation families. The trend is, as society becomes wealthier, to lower, less than replacement rate birth rates. So those who dream of bankrupt ski resorts so they can climb will likely get their wish.

Until traffic and real estate improves dramatically, I am guessing not much happens at resorts like Kicking Horse and Revy. A relative of mine has a lot at Revy good for a sizeable condo development, but he isn’t committing the capital until traffic improves. So if you can get there, it likely remains underutilised for years.

The only resort I think that has made any kind of infrastructure investment in the last 10 years might be Panorama. It is owned by a group of well heeled investors all of whom have deep pockets and willing to commit to the hill. The mountain has also been one of the few making positive returns over the past few years.




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[singlecross]

Very true.

The real estate drive was key to getting resorts built post 1970, Whistler under Intrawest was one model. Once the land base was built out, W-B went up for sale as the owners headed for better financial returns. Fortress bought it and then went belly-up when the returns on operations weren’t enough to sustain the resort and cover the high yield debt costs. Capital for maintenance, construction and expansion follows the most attractive risk adjusted returns. Ski resort operations are highly capital intensive ( maintenance, machinery, and labour) and returns typically are low. If ever at all positive. So risk is high, given weather dependency. The risk -return ratio of a purely operational ski resort, no real estate, is very high and less attractive to capital.

North American population growth is only positive due to immigration and birth rates among first generation families. The trend is, as society becomes wealthier, to lower, less than replacement rate birth rates. So those who dream of bankrupt ski resorts so they can climb will likely get their wish.

Until traffic and real estate improves dramatically, I am guessing not much happens at resorts like Kicking Horse and Revy. A relative of mine has a lot at Revy good for a sizeable condo development, but he isn’t committing the capital until traffic improves. So if you can get there, it likely remains underutilised for years.

The only resort I think that has made any kind of infrastructure investment in the last 10 years might be Panorama. It is owned by a group of well heeled investors all of whom have deep pockets and willing to commit to the hill. The mountain has also been one of the few making positive returns over the past few years.




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^^^^
This. The point that I didn't make clearly enough with my reference to Modern Skiing is that the ski areas were making money selling real estate, not lift tickets and food/beverage. As the real estate built out to its limits and/or dried up, profits must be achieved through other means. Higher lift ticket prices and food/beverage prices. Higher prices on day tickets and food does not help attract new skiers to the sport as mentioned by several others.

[yeahman]

I wonder what the typical maggot yearly spend is on skiing and related expenses. $1000? $2000?

I think you're close. My family of 4 spends about 7k per year on gold season passes at Big Sky and lodging, and that's for 50-60 days of skiing. Does not include equipment, which I don't find to be that expensive if purchased a year or two behind the current ski models, and ski it for two or three years. Pretty easy to pick up half price stuff. We lease boots for the kids, like $50 a year. We always pack a lunch.

We're lucky to live 2.5 hours from the hill. It's easy to do two days of skiing and only pay one night of lodging. That saves a lot of money. Plus I make reservations in August when prices are cheapest because availability is max. I think I averaged $120 per night for this season including resort tax etc. We pretty much stay at the most economical hotel near Big Sky, and it's clean and quiet.

Is 7k a lot for a season of family skiing? To me it seems like a bargain, the best thing I could possibly spend my money on. I'm happy to sacrifice in other areas, i.e. cars that are ten-plus years old, a modest house, etc. Other people want to drive new cars and have a big house they act like I'm crazy for spending $ on season passes. SMH

[Peruvian]

It’s been documented how kids’ sports becoming year round have crippled parents from leaving the flatlands for the weekend to ensure Johnny/Joanie gets to their $500 indoor baseball/field hockey private lessons.

If they considered skiing a “sport” and not just “recreation”, they would gladly pay the money to guarantee Johnny/Joanie get to the mountain by 8:30am on Saturday.

But please don’t force them into ski racing.

[SumJongGuy]

It’s been documented how kids’ sports becoming year round have crippled parents from leaving the flatlands for the weekend to ensure Johnny/Joanie gets to their $500 indoor baseball/field hockey private lessons.

If they considered skiing a “sport” and not just “recreation”, they would gladly pay the money to guarantee Johnny/Joanie get to the mountain by 8:30am on Saturday.

But please don’t force them into ski racing.

What about Fortnight Coaches??

Your kid's Fortnite obsession could land them a college scholarship

[Benny Profane]

You realize that you guys just live in a shitty part of the country right?

That's a matter of opinion. Skiing isn't the only thing in life. And, lo and behold, air travel!

[SumJongGuy]

I'm 100% in agreement that the overall cost of skiing with equipment and travel costs is going up faster than inflation. I'm not so sure that season pass prices are. when we include the multi resort pass options. Heck, most pass deals I've seen seem to be much better than they looked 10-15 years ago. Now, WALK UP ticket prices?? HOLY CRAP!

[m2711c]

You realize that you guys just live in a shitty part of the country right?

Maybe... but we also have more ski areas than any other state interested the Union.





So we got that goin for us.....

[Benny Profane]

keep givin em the business over in ecrc, bunny.
it’s funny shit reading about their culture wars
we’ve pretty much embraced the weekenders as
a constant presence on pow and ski school days
the mom& pops are still somewhat less occupied
but those are out in the sticks with 937’ vertical
good example is your buddy KQ’s place, Bluewood
going gangbusters according to her, no lift line.

A trip to Seattle still looks good. Never been, and now I have a pass.

[nickinbc]

People sure like making babies and we won't slow down until we are forced to.

I guess you haven't looked at the statistics for some time. In most developed countries birth rate has fallen a LONG way below replacement rate. The exception used to be the USA but even there the birth rate has fallen below 2 children per woman. Even in most of the developing world birth rates are plummeting.

[phatty]

Skiing with a family takes a lot of commitment, even in areas that are close to the mountains. I can't imagine how little I would get in if I had a 2+ hour drive. Heck, even an hour. 35 min to Lot 4 of Alpental is probably the only way I get my 30+ days in.

I have 5 kids and was hell bent on making sure I got my kids into it. Started a little later when my oldest 3 could come and #4 was a baby. Wife stayed home either pregnant or with a baby for the first few years. Put my kids in lessons to force us to go. Got a job teaching part time at Alpental to get my pass free and cheap lessons and passes for the whole family. Just bought mine for the year and less than $1k for 6 passes. We don't try to force full days and snag as many nights as we can.

I see a lot of families in similar situations. I see way more in the "I go 3-4 times a year". It's amazing to me how many people are willing to drop $150 for a day of skiing. I love it and couldn't justify it. Many of the families from India and China here look at it like a trip to Disneyland. Snoqualmie recognizes this trend and is trying to cater to it, even adding Indian food to the lodge menu.

[jmedslc]

TLDR for now

Ikon pass has solitude crowded this year w new families and posses. Amazing impact. Next year will be huge up here. Yikes

[Vitamin I]

Bummer that the body of the article doesn't really touch the topic in its title. Clickbait?

Also, weird that the article portrays the Ski Areas of NSAA as trying hard for years to promote industry growth for each other, instead of each competing in its own self-interest for its slice of the pie. I don't really see that, and there's no growth at all to be seen anyway for the past 18 years of data (see https://www.statista.com/statistics/...us-since-2000/ ). Did they really even TRY for growth?

I'm no expert at ski industry analysis. It's sufficient for me to just vaguely boil it down to this: The industry provides false myths of high prices & elite exclusiveness to overpaying high-roller whale customers, and then the industry can afford to provide actual skiing to underpaying real skier customers. Even as just a fellow customer, I am thankful that the whales indirectly fund my hobby. I hope that general model never dies.

.

[tmokes]

I think student passes are reasonable. I just wish they make it more affordable for children to participate with paying parents.


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[Benny Profane]

I guess you haven't looked at the statistics for some time. In most developed countries birth rate has fallen a LONG way below replacement rate. The exception used to be the USA but even there the birth rate has fallen below 2 children per woman. Even in most of the developing world birth rates are plummeting.

Not in Utah.

[neha009]

thanks

[SB]

I blame Rob Story.

Also I thought this had to do with sail plane activity preventing apres ski events from getting more knuckle draggers into the bar.

[pano-dude]

Local mountain had a program for local grade 4 kids, all got free passes and the school brought them up once a week for 4 weeks. 5 dollar rentals and all had a 3 hr lesson eash day.
Good marketing as families would be motivated to go up and weekends.

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[XXX-er]

Yeah we got the same idea going a 30$ seasons pass for grade 5 kids, also a big school program and a lot of FN kids being sent skiing all of which helps the bottom line for a small ski hill.
Someon e asked why we should care if people don't come skiing, Cuz the bottom line is that if the hill doen't put people on the hill if they don't make the place a success financially they go under, so a few extra bodies is the price to pay for a lift that spins

Or you could always walk up