Shift fail or ?

[reckless toboggan]

Occam's razor at odds with teh interwebz.

Always.

[burrito]

With no visible damage to the nubbon or the bottom plate of the binding, I gotta go with those saying it was never properly engaged in the first place. It seems improbable that the ski could flex so much that the nubbon would completely clear the slot, which is the only way it could disengage without leaving any semblance of damage to either piece.

[jdadour]

Not sure the intent of the nubbin/Z-toe design is to address ski flex, might just be an easy way to add an attachment point at the front of the toe without requiring a flange (like Warden) or an access passage through the mechanism.

That's my thought as well.

Makes sense, I'm inclined to agree. Its just curious as to why the jig would have some gap, as opposed to being flush.

[Norseman]

My guess would be to avoid the shear loading that could result from decambering.

[toast2266]

Makes sense, I'm inclined to agree. Its just curious as to why the jig would have some gap, as opposed to being flush.

I bet it's to allow a little bit of flex. Just like the heel plates on the STH2 allowed the front 2 screws to float a bit as the ski flexed.

I don't think the ski is flexing enough to disengage the attachment, but I bet there's a millimeter or two of allowance for flex that's intentionally built into the system.

[lucknau]

This is interesting. Lucknau, it makes total sense as to why you decided to move the position of the nubbin on your template (which I used to mount my Shifts), but I have to agree with Reckless that this kind of compromises the whole design of the toe piece to flex freely right? Thats kind of a big deal. Or would it not really be moving in that direction so it doesnt matter at all? Does the design of the flex compensation have more to do with the slight gap between the toe piece and the ski, rather than the sliding back and forth on the nubbin?

I am considering moving my nubbin to the proper position, or dremeling the plate to provide more space to slide ( the latter probably being the best idea).

Okay, I was waiting on confirmation about that 64.5mm dimension, but maybe someone else can get access to a jig and check. I replaced the template with this revision. I'm going to leave mine alone the way they're mounted. I don't think it'll be a problem. The shear strength of the toe screw is pretty high, the button torques down on the ski surface, which gives it additional shear strength (via clamping force), and the aluminum will damp out the impact from the binding plate. That's what I'm saying to convince myself that it'll be okay. Next time I'll probably mount according to the revision. I'd like a really accurate mm measurement of the distance on-center between the front screw and a middle row screw, though.

[tuco]

Thanks for testing spyderjon!

If the nubbin wasn't properly engaged in the slot, wouldn't the whole front of the toe piece be sitting almost a centimeter off of the ski and be at a weird upward angle?

Ie. Pretty noticable like in the first picture the OP posted?

Spyderjon, tuco, True north if the binding was mounted and was sitting on top of the nubbin with it not engaged in the slot, it would look like the OPs first pic in this thread. Wouldn't somebody have noticed it? If I got a new pair of bindings and wasn't involved in the mount, when I got to see my new skis and bindings for the first time, I'd look it over. I'd like to think we'd all notice if our binding was at a funky angle and sitting a cm off the ski.

If you look at nubbin and baseplate, you cannot see any tear out damage to metal surfaces. Yet you can clearly see on baseplate and nubbin where each was sitting while disengaged. Seems to me the forces to pull the binding from nubbin would result in at least a visible scratch propagating from nubbin flange and the area where slot flares

[jdadour]

Okay, I was waiting on confirmation about that 64.5mm dimension, but maybe someone else can get access to a jig and check. I replaced the template with this revision. I'm going to leave mine alone the way they're mounted. I don't think it'll be a problem. The shear strength of the toe screw is pretty high, the button torques down on the ski surface, which gives it additional shear strength (via clamping force), and the aluminum will damp out the impact from the binding plate. That's what I'm saying to convince myself that it'll be okay. Next time I'll probably mount according to the revision. I'd like a really accurate mm measurement of the distance on-center between the front screw and a middle row screw, though.

Thanks. Keep us posted.

[JuiceboxHero]

I bet it's to allow a little bit of flex. Just like the heel plates on the STH2 allowed the front 2 screws to float a bit as the ski flexed.

I don't think the ski is flexing enough to disengage the attachment, but I bet there's a millimeter or two of allowance for flex that's intentionally built into the system.

Makes sense. The heel plate of Warden demos also have something like this. The forward screws hard-mount to the ski, the back two travel in tracks.

[sfotex]

When I had issues with my OG Scarpa F1's Scarpa kept telling me that they had the baddest ass skiers in Europe testing the boots all season.
I then asked if those skiers were using reverse camber soft powder skies. They said probably not....Gotta wonder if the same things happened here.....

[iriponsnow]

When I had issues with my OG Scarpa F1's Scarpa kept telling me that they had the baddest ass skiers in Europe testing the boots all season.
I then asked if those skiers were using reverse camber soft powder skies. They said probably not....Gotta wonder if the same things happened here.....

I went back through my phone & found a picture of the ski this occurred to & the nubbon is clearly where it needs to be after the mount, so I doubt it was disengaged.

[EarlyWood]

sorry if I'm an idiot here but how is that picture showing that the nubbon is clearly where it needs to be?

[Spyderjon]

Okay, I was waiting on confirmation about that 64.5mm dimension, but maybe someone else can get access to a jig......

Yep, it's 64.5mm measure off the jig.

[iriponsnow]

If you enlarge the image, it’s not sticking off the ski.

[EarlyWood]

I think you have the wrong pic posted?

[EarlyWood]

maybe I'm misinterpreting ... based on your comment re: having found a pic, I was expecting to see a side elevation of the original mount before you skied it

[reckless toboggan]

I went back through my phone & found a picture of the ski this occurred to & the nubbon is clearly where it needs to be after the mount, so I doubt it was disengaged.

Got many enemies? People who'd want you ... dead?

[Spyderjon]

I went back through my phone & found a picture of the ski this occurred to & the nubbon is clearly where it needs to be after the mount, so I doubt it was disengaged.

Just 'cause it was torque tested doesn't mean that the toe was fully seated. Admittedly you'd think that the tech doing the test would spot the gap under the binding but the forward pressure/toe height could still be adjusted correctly and binding would still torque test fine as screws 2/3 & 4/5 give all the support needed for the lateral toe release and all the load from the vertical heel release is on the heel base plate screw.

I smell a case of post installation sabotage - who at the shop have you upset or has your missus increased you life assurance recently?

[kid-kapow]

nice RB, add some more sauce to the plot! The plot thickens (with Sabotage blasting in the background!)!

[Spyderjon]

Got many enemies? People who'd want you ... dead?

LOL, great minds think alike.

[reckless toboggan]

LOL, great minds think alike.

Word!

[iriponsnow]

Hahahaha, no I tend to drop a case of Frost beer on em each time I’m in.

[iriponsnow]

https://www.frostbeerworks.com/

[galibier_numero_un]

Not sure the intent of the nubbin/Z-toe design is to address ski flex, might just be an easy way to add an attachment point at the front of the toe without requiring a flange (like Warden) or an access passage through the mechanism.

I haven't handled the binders, but your comment is consistent with a mounting comment someone made in the main Shift thread.

Someone thought his template was off because his holes #2 & 3 didn't line up with the binding holes.

The poster followed up, noting that he didn't slide the toe toward the tail of the ski so that the stud (#1) reached the limit of the slot. At this point, holes #2 & 3 lined up.

Of course this is predicated on the template version he used being correct.

To Jon or anyone else who has used the factory jig - when you engage the toe into the stud, is the toe slid back to the limit of the stud slot when holes #2 & 3 line up with binding hole #s 2 & 3?

if the toe locates at "stop" it's inconsistent with the binding "floating" when the ski flexes into reverse camber.

Jon - I really liked your analysis, and I can easily see a shop rat missing engaging the stud into the slot. It's the most likely error.

... Thom

[Spyderjon]

......To Jon or anyone else who has used the factory jig - when you engage the toe into the stud, is the toe slid back to the limit of the stud slot when holes #2 & 3 line up with binding hole #s 2 & 3?.......

No, when mounting with the jig the toe stud is not at it's limit when the holes 2/3 line up. There's still a couple of mm to go as per lucknau's first pic (see post #38, page 2) to allow for the reverse camber flexing. However, what limits the sliding movement of the binding across the topsheet of the ski is when the rear plastic tab holding screws 4/5 hits its stop inside it's recess under the AFD . When that happens the binding holes 2/3 align with the 2/3 holes in the ski.

So the guy you referred to in the other thread that couldn't get his holes to align must've had a error on the dimension between holes 2/3 and 4/5 as when that is correct and the binding slid fully across until it stops the 2/3 holes will align.

I think that what the analysis in this thread has shown is that at first examination of the binding it appears that there's a bit of flexibilty in the fore/aft postioning of the three toe mounting locations due to the sliding stud at the front and the sliding plastic tab holding screws 4/5 when in reality the jig positions these locations very precisely.