Does social media overhype avy danger?

[plugboots]

Pretty straightforward, hype needed?

[zion zig zag]

I'd say half of the people that I've toured with this year have been either brand new or less than a year of experience. I enjoy being a mentor because it probably helps me as much as it helps them. I find that verbalizing all of the things I'm thinking of with them helps keep me sharp and reminds me why/what I'm looking for.

I don't even mind if they aren't super proficient with their new gear, I'll give tips on how I skin, transition and dress. I was and still am mentored by people more experienced than me and I'm willing to pay that back.

What I really care about with new people is fitness and actual ability to ski. Both are safety issues that I can't teach.

[PNWbrit]

Pretty straightforward, hype needed?

I was half expecting extreme...

(BTW I couldn't make those NWAC sessions. I'll try and figure out another way)

[raisingarizona13]

I'd say half of the people that I've toured with this year have been either brand new or less than a year of experience. I enjoy being a mentor because it probably helps me as much as it helps them. I find that verbalizing all of the things I'm thinking of with them helps keep me sharp and reminds me why/what I'm looking for.

I don't even mind if they aren't super proficient with their new gear, I'll give tips on how I skin, transition and dress. I was and still am mentored by people more experienced than me and I'm willing to pay that back.

What I really care about with new people is fitness and actual ability to ski. Both are safety issues that I can't teach.

I love mentoring as well. It totally helps to explain your observations and thoughts. The using of skins, crampons (necessary here) and uphilling through very difficult terrain and long day energy management has been the big issue with newbies for me. I think around 90% of newbies I've taken out don't make it past the first climb up and out of the ski area here. We get some serious rime and ice up high as well as thin and rocky conditions. It's tough to take on total green people for a tour, especially when it's gonna be a banger day and those can be very few and far between. Then again, I often have to take out newbies for a partner since I only have a few regular partners that aren't always available.

[Norseman]

https://www.instagram.com/p/BrgrWtBF...=1mt9as2ioqps8

[raisingarizona13]

At 43 years old now my feelings on bc skiing have changed quite a bit. I'm not willing to risk very much and the thought of being buried terrifies me. It's just not an option imo.

The best part is being more than ok with calling it and turning around. Skiing pow is fun and all but it's not worth dying for.

[PNWbrit]

https://www.instagram.com/p/BrgrWtBF...=1mt9as2ioqps8

"Don't be over confident just because you hadn't seen any natural avalanche or snow movement over the past few days."

Shakes head.....

[Norseman]

Shakes head.....

Exactly.

[I've seen black diamonds!]

Skiing pow is fun and all but it's not worth dying for.

Skiing 25 degree pow on fat skis with friends and dogs doesn't suck either.

[plugboots]

Skiing 25 degree pow on fat skis with friends and dogs doesn't suck either.

Right?!
And... what was Kyle thinking?

[doebedoe]

Skiing 25 degree pow on fat skis with friends and dogs doesn't suck either.

#25Degrees is gonna be my new IG tag after last weekend. 25 degree meadows + 25 degrees warm is pretty much a damn good day in the bc.

[reckless toboggan]

I'd say half of the people that I've toured with this year have been either brand new or less than a year of experience. I enjoy being a mentor because it probably helps me as much as it helps them. I find that verbalizing all of the things I'm thinking of with them helps keep me sharp and reminds me why/what I'm looking for.

I don't even mind if they aren't super proficient with their new gear, I'll give tips on how I skin, transition and dress. I was and still am mentored by people more experienced than me and I'm willing to pay that back.

What I really care about with new people is fitness and actual ability to ski. Both are safety issues that I can't teach.

At 43 years old now my feelings on bc skiing have changed quite a bit. I'm not willing to risk very much and the thought of being buried terrifies me. It's just not an option imo.

The best part is being more than ok with calling it and turning around. Skiing pow is fun and all but it's not worth dying for.

Skiing 25 degree pow on fat skis with friends and dogs doesn't suck either.

#25Degrees is gonna be my new IG tag after last weekend. 25 degree meadows + 25 degrees warm is pretty much a damn good day in the bc.

All of this.

However, ski area hike/skin to slackcountry is still well within my risk tolerance to charge bigger harder lines. Always has been. Probably due to more traffic/skier stabilization of the snowpack over the season, and many more reports/data points from people I trust. Obviously, avoiding best I can the "I know the area", "I've skied it a hundred times", complacency and other traps that may be associated. Additionally, in the areas I ski, more and more and more slackcountry is being avy controlled/mitigated (obviously nothing is 100%), so I've got that going for me, which is nice. Also, I'm spoiled having the Pass so close, with all of the data points, friends, professionals, and associated attention to almost every inch of that place.

[Gunder]

Learn how to determine slope angle on a topo. Use slope angle overlay tools to look at familiar ski zones to start developing an intuitive sense of slope angle.

When you're out touring measure slope angle like a maniac. Use hand held tools to measure small features and a surveying-type app like Dioptra to measure large slopes. After a while you can judge slope angle within a few degrees by looking. Go nuts with a compass too
.

To be perfectly honest I think this advice is totally useless. In 20 years the only time I have ever measured slope angle or pulled out a compass is when I had to on the CAA forms for my Opps 1.

If you are out ski touring who cares if a slope is 30 or 37.5 or 40 degrees. It doesnt matter. All of those can and do produce slides.

All you need to do is OPEN YOUR EYES. If it looks steep enough that snow could physically slide on it, then its steep enough to slide. It's also pretty damn obvious what direction the wind was coming from. Look at what side of trees are rimed. What direction does the wind marks on the snow point? Wind ALWAYS deposits snow downwind. Same with Solar. None of this is rocket science.

Start paying attention to what slopes always slide around your local area. Thats a great place to start building up a mental reference. (hint, most black runs are steep enough to produce slides) If you cant determine the above with just using your eyes then you are best of skiing around in resort until you can.

Where this all becomes difficult is analyzing how the weather interacts with micro aka mini golf terrain features. 99% of topo maps are also useless for this.

What the classes all lack is interpreting snow test results to real world terrain. For example, you have a hoar frost layer in your pit, well then best way to deal with that is to stay off of big, planer slopes. Best to stick with supported broken up terrain. You have that same hoar layer with sudden fracture characteristics, then you better go find an area free of that layer, as even broken up supported terrain is going to be an issue.

[JRainey]

He’s done some really cool stuff in the mountains but the Mt Si thing was nothing more than a publicity stunt

High profile guides get better bookings. It should be ok that a professional seeks to raise their profile.

*I know nothing of the individual event in question.

[raisingarizona13]

High profile guides get better bookings. It should be ok that a professional seeks to raise their profile.

*I know nothing of the individual event in question.

I was thinking it made sense as a move to gain more clients. Everybody's gotta eat.

[PNWbrit]

I was thinking it made sense as a move to gain more clients. Everybody's gotta eat.

It got published in a small town's free newspaper... it's not like the guy was trying for a Red Bull sponsorship.

And if it pissed off TAY... good.

[Gunder]

It pissed off TAY... good.

If those guys spent a fraction of the time they do bitching.... then they might actually become good skiers. They seem to get riled up about just about anything they can think of. Too bad, because I think in concept its a great site, but cant stand the climate on that board.

[PNWbrit]

Silas is ok

Talking about social media overhype.

[I've seen black diamonds!]

To be perfectly honest I think this advice is totally useless. In 20 years the only time I have ever measured slope angle or pulled out a compass is when I had to on the CAA forms for my Opps 1.

If you are out ski touring who cares if a slope is 30 or 37.5 or 40 degrees. It doesnt matter. All of those can and do produce slides.

All you need to do is OPEN YOUR EYES. If it looks steep enough that snow could physically slide on it, then its steep enough to slide. It's also pretty damn obvious what direction the wind was coming from. Look at what side of trees are rimed. What direction does the wind marks on the snow point? Wind ALWAYS deposits snow downwind. Same with Solar. None of this is rocket science.

Start paying attention to what slopes always slide around your local area. Thats a great place to start building up a mental reference. (hint, most black runs are steep enough to produce slides) If you cant determine the above with just using your eyes then you are best of skiing around in resort until you can.

Where this all becomes difficult is analyzing how the weather interacts with micro aka mini golf terrain features. 99% of topo maps are also useless for this.

What the classes all lack is interpreting snow test results to real world terrain. For example, you have a hoar frost layer in your pit, well then best way to deal with that is to stay off of big, planer slopes. Best to stick with supported broken up terrain. You have that same hoar layer with sudden fracture characteristics, then you better go find an area free of that layer, as even broken up supported terrain is going to be an issue.

I don't disagree that one may be able to develop sense of what is likely to slide without measuring a whole bunch of slopes, but I maintain that a few days where you do a whole bunch of measuring can lead to lifetime of being pretty good at estimating slope angle at a glance, especially with a bit of practice at the beginning of each season.

I also disagree that 30 degrees and 38 degrees are the same. They're not:



It's certainly is good to know "what slopes always slide around your local area," but the problem with founding your decision making too firmly on this is that it may lead to confidence in slopes that usually don't slide but may be dangerous with unusual weather or snow pack. Plus, when you travel to unfamiliar areas the mountains don't look the same. There may be no rime on the trees. The snowpack follows different rules. But If you plan a tour where it's possible to stay on or retreat to slopes that are under 30 degrees you can stay pretty darn safe even in unfamiliar environs. Topos and slope angle overlay tools can give a pretty good sense of where you will be able (or unable) to retreat to safety if things get spooky.

[Foggy_Goggles]

Re: slope angles

If it looks fun to ski, it is avalanche terrain

If it looks like meadow skipping, it is probably <30deg.

Where an inclinometer is hand is assessing alpha angles it big terrain and exposed routes uphill, IMO.

But yeah, like Gunder (spagettio barf), I have never used a topo overlay or anything like that. Not to say that it could not be useful but it is far from a requirement for a newby.

I've actually used this training tool. Pretty cool.
https://www.ortovox.com/us/safety-ac...y-mountain-3d/

[Gunder]

[QUOTE=I've seen black diamonds!;5533525
I also disagree that 30 degrees and 38 degrees are the same. They're not:
.[/QUOTE]

If you are going to make decisions about skiing a slope based upon slope angle, you are going to end up dead. A major problem with all avy classes is way too much time is wasted on book statistics and not real time in the mountains actually evaluating terrain and conditions. Never once in 20 years have I ever seen anyone decide to ski a slope because its only 35 degrees, and not the "book target range" At the end of the day its either steep enough to slide or its not. I dont know of a single avalanche professional that can give you an exact number on any given day based upon conditions.

Paying attention to what slopes slide often is a great way to develop a base line of what typically slides. Once you have that as a reference its a great place to start looking at your snow test results and then make a decision on what to ski. I.E. I got a very easy sudden result, well then its telling me slopes that are a lot lower angle the the slopes that typically slide in this area are also going to be suspect. If I get a very hard resistant result then its telling me that I need to pay extra attention to slopes that are approaching the steepness of what commonly slides in the area. This same principle still works great anytime I go somewhere new. First thing I do is pay attention to where there are trees or not, or any other signs that give me a clue about what are typical slide paths in the area and make a mental catalog of weather on average those are lower angle or steeper then my home area.

Even with no rime on trees its still very easy to tell what direction wind came from. I.E. surface snow texture always points into the direction wind came from and with a little experience its pretty damn easy to see where pockets are loaded. Its also pretty easy to tell the typically predominate wind direction by looking at all of the various clues, I.E. where are most the cornices, where are the trees missing branches etc.

[PNWbrit]

If you are going to make decisions about skiing a slope based upon slope angle, you are going to end up dead. A major problem with all avy classes is way too much time is wasted on book statistics and not real time in the mountains actually evaluating terrain and conditions. Never once in 20 years have I ever seen anyone decide to ski a slope because its only 35 degrees, and not the "book target range" At the end of the day its either steep enough to slide or its not.

I think you're missing his point... That learning to identify what that steep enough angle is... is important. I don't necessarily agree with the poster who said measure "everything" all the time.

[mall walker]

Measuring to help answer the more-or-less binary question "is this slope capable of sliding?" seems fine and good to me.

Measuring to correlate the slope angle to a statistical table with the intent of reducing the likelihood of a slope sliding by n%... (eg "well we have a PWL here and 71% of those slides fail on slopes 36-40º, so let's step down to 35º where only 18% of the slides occur")... that's a big "no thanks" for me anyway.

I don't think anyone here is advocating for the latter though.

[raisingarizona13]

All of the mentioned factors vary upon situational circumstances. I think the savvy BC skier is constantly observing and has a keen sense for adaptability, as well as constantly questioning their own belief system and previous experience.

I've definitely picked a 35 degree slope over the 38 degree slope in certain situations. Shit, I've even gone with the 50 footer to steeper landing than the 70+ footer to flatter landing on sensitive snow packs. On that particular day that 70 footer was sent shortly after I hit the 50 footer and it resulted in an 8 foot crown climax slide. Sometimes it's just a feel that's hard to explain but if you're out there every day you sort of develop a relationship with the pack and take bigger risks depending on your tolerance.

That being said, I don't take chances like that anymore, that was 18+ years ago and it seems like a lifetime ago, I'm a very different person and don't care to put myself at risk like that.

[I've seen black diamonds!]

I think you're missing his point... That learning to identify what that steep enough angle is... is important. I don't necessarily agree with the poster who said measure "everything" all the time.

Yeah, this is pretty much all I'm saying. You need to learn what is steep enough to slide so you can stay out of or retreat from avy terrain altogether. And to plan tours where this is possible. One way to do this is by measuring a bunch of slope angles in a number of different ways. You don't need to keep doing this for the rest of your life. After a little practice you can eye ball it remarkably well.

I'm sure as hell not suggesting that on a given day it will be safe to ski something that is 35 degrees vs 38 (although CAIC does have a habit of recommending folks avoid slopes over 35 degree on moderate days, which I find oddly specific). But here, in the land of the persistent deep layer, it is not a coincidence that if you want to ski up high in open terrain in the winter, and your risk tolerance isn't high, you will often find yourself on slopes between 25-28 degrees, i.e. steep enough to build up some momentum, but not steep enough to slide under most conditions.