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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by plugboots View Post
    So I guess, I want the IG, FB, whatever post that would have reached them, and cause them to not hike in the area that killed them.
    Or the snowmobiler who was killed that same day on the other side of the pass. The two kids was particularly tragic and exasperating though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Downbound Train View Post
    And there will come a day when our ancestors look back...........

  2. #52
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    Two Bellevue teenagers who went missing near the Summit at Snoqualmie were found dead Monday morning, the King County Sheriff’s Office said.

    The male teens, ages 17 and 18, were killed in an avalanche, said sheriff’s spokesman Sgt. Ryan Abbott. The pair went missing Sunday amid heavy snowfall and high avalanche danger near a backwoods area of Alpental-Snow Lake area.

    The teens were supposed to return Sunday night. When they didn’t come home, their parents called 911 around 9 p.m., Abbott said.

    Search-and-rescue crews were unable to search for the pair Sunday night because of the avalanche danger, he said. The search was launched around 8 a.m. Monday, using the GPS from one of the victim’s cellphones to find their general location.

    Their bodies were found between 11 and 11:30 a.m., Abbott said.

    Both teens were wearing avalanche beacons, he said. Their names have not been released.

    The pass has received about 25 inches of snow in the past three days.


    The Northwest Avalanche Center (NWAC) issued an avalanche warning over the weekend for backcountry travelers. At Snoqualmie Pass, the organization forecast high avalanche risk and recommended against traveling in avalanche terrain as heavy snow fell.

    The organization warned against traveling on steep slopes, because layers of cohesive snow were sitting on a weak layer and were liable to slide in human-triggered or natural avalanches.

    “Expect widespread avalanches in the new snow including many natural avalanches. Many of these could be big enough to kill you,” the organization warned in its Sunday forecast.
    I don't know how much more clear it can be than that. When I was 17 or 18 I didn't think things like that were directed at me. Therein lies at least some of the problem.

  3. #53
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    There's the people that are (at least to some degree) knowledgeable, but yet choose to ignore that knowledge and/or make incredibly terrible decisions. Social media posts seem like they're more effective against the people that aren't really knowledgeable at all, and aren't even really aware that the decisions they're making are terrible. Ignorance is bliss until it kills you and everyone around you.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by plugboots View Post
    I could only take about 5 seconds of that SFB posted video. WTF.

    Anyway, on 2/25/18 2 kids were killed near where I spend a lot of time. I want to know what type of report would have saved their lives.

    Some info:
    ~~~~~
    Avalanche safety gear carried by party: Both carried transceivers, shovels, probes. Subject 1 had an ice axe. Subject 2 had an ABS airbag backpack that was not deployed.
    Avalanche Training and Experience: Subject 1 had taken an AIARE Avalanche Level 1 course the previous year. Subject 2 had taken two avalanche awareness classes.
    ~~~~~
    So afterwards it was discovered that the avie report, (high danger level), was given to them verbally, through texts, and was viewed on one of their computers, and yet they still chose poorly.

    So I guess, I want the IG, FB, whatever post that would have reached them, and cause them to not hike in the area that killed them.
    As you well know, that whole valley is pretty much filled with hangfire, and avalanche exposure, yet it is also probably the most popular backcountry spot in the state for equipped and non-equipped alike. probably because the route finding is so easy... follow the creek track.

    IME, knowing the snow part of avy dangers is becoming more and more popular because the information is so easily accessible and easy to understand and digest. BUT, people get into trouble with the route finding and terrain portion of the equation which is much more complex and variable and takes experience and work above and beyond glancing through the latest avy report.

    I realize its a HUUUGE liability issue and would never happen, but i think it would be cool if the avalanche centers recommended a "tour of the day", or a "bad idea tour of the day" based on snow/weather conditions and the terrain involved. Maybe a list of popular tours that are bad ideas that day would help keep folks out of trouble.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by californiagrown View Post
    the information is so easily accessible and easy to understand and digest.
    Apparently not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Downbound Train View Post
    And there will come a day when our ancestors look back...........

  6. #56
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    I agree with you guys in the last few posts, I am kinda brainstorming on how having the OP's question be a bad thing. Too much info? Over hyped?
    Well maybe I'm the faggot America
    I'm not a part of a redneck agenda

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by californiagrown View Post
    I realize its a HUUUGE liability issue and would never happen, but i think it would be cool if the avalanche centers recommended a "tour of the day", or a "bad idea tour of the day" based on snow/weather conditions and the terrain involved. Maybe a list of popular tours that are bad ideas that day would help keep folks out of trouble.
    I just can't see it working, at least for "tour of the day," as all the crowds that sort of recommendation would draw (at least here) would present a whole new type of danger. Not to mention the liability.

    On the "bad tour of the day," the UAC has occasionally called out certain slopes/zones as being notably unsafe for the conditions that day (eg Stairs, Broads when glide is of particular concern) but it's pretty uncommon.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by californiagrown View Post

    IME, knowing the snow part of avy dangers is becoming more and more popular because the information is so easily accessible and easy to understand and digest. BUT, people get into trouble with the route finding and terrain portion of the equation which is much more complex and variable and takes experience and work above and beyond glancing through the latest avy report.
    .
    I agree 100%... I just did the CAA OPPS pro course. My single bigggest complaint about the class is that way too much time is wasted on crystal ID and virtually no time is spent on how relate your snow test findings to appropriate terrain. Every terrain assesment exercise or evaluation they did was solely based upon finding the most mellow completely danger free route possible. That is FAR from the reality and nor is it always the "safest" option due to other circumstances.

    ALL avalanche education at EVERY LEVEL drops the ball on appropriate terrain selection. Granted to really become proficient at that, requires years of experience in the field with very experienced people. I feel like I have a good grasp on that these days, but I certainly wouldn't call my self an expert at it... there is just way too many variables. HOWEVER classes should at the very least start with the basics of it and give people at least a bit of a clue as to how to begin to applying the snow evaluation portion to terrain.
    Last edited by Gunder; 12-17-2018 at 04:09 PM.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunder View Post
    ALL avalanche education at EVERY LEVEL drops the ball on appropriate terrain selection.
    QFT.
    In my mealy little mind, terrain selection is fundamental, primary and for the most part trumps everything else.
    Merde De Glace On the Freak When Ski
    >>>200 cm Black Bamboo Sidewalled DPS Lotus 120 : Best Skis Ever <<<

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by californiagrown View Post
    I realize its a HUUUGE liability issue and would never happen, but i think it would be cool if the avalanche centers recommended a "tour of the day", or a "bad idea tour of the day" based on snow/weather conditions and the terrain involved. Maybe a list of popular tours that are bad ideas that day would help keep folks out of trouble.
    That fucking awful christmas themed youtube video posted up thread essentially had that. It called out a couple areas as being particularly bad ideas.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buster Highmen View Post
    QFT.
    In my mealy little mind, terrain selection is fundamental, primary and for the most part trumps everything else.
    I was posting a longer version of this. I went to my avie 1 class, and I felt they spent way too little time on this. Almost no talk of skiing one-by-one, sking to safe zones, etc.
    Well maybe I'm the faggot America
    I'm not a part of a redneck agenda

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by doebedoe View Post
    If their mission is to reduce avalanche deaths, overhype is likely a useful stratedgy.
    I agree with this. I find it pretty easy to get past the social media overhype of the local avy center and just get the facts that I need. SFB can't seem to get past this with the UAC, he wants all users to be him, but they aren't, and that's great. The UAC probably forecast's for one of the densest user groups in any area, and often, when it comes to this shit, lowest common denominator is the target.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    What's the difference between a joey and a jerry?
    A Joey is more likely to be found on the east coast a jerry is more likely to be seen in the rocky Mountain region.

    Glad I can help out when needed

    Sent from my SCH-I435 using Tapatalk

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by fastfred View Post
    A Joey is more likely to be found on the east coast a jerry is more likely to be seen in the rocky Mountain region.

    Glad I can help out when needed

    Sent from my SCH-I435 using Tapatalk
    Don't forget that Texans are considered a subspecies here.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buster Highmen View Post
    In my mealy little mind, terrain selection is fundamental, primary and for the most part trumps everything else.
    Agreed. Best advice anyone can get when dealing a questionable snowpack is to manage the terrain not the conditions.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunder View Post
    Agreed. Best advice anyone can get when dealing a questionable snowpack is to manage the terrain not the conditions.
    I try to remind myself of this every time.
    PE, Mechanical Engineering
    University of Bridger Bowl Alumnus
    Alpental Creeper

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunder View Post
    Agreed. Best advice anyone can get when dealing a questionable snowpack is to manage the terrain not the conditions.
    When we did a 6 day tour with Roger Averbeck, one of the first people to set up a hut system out in the Wallowas in the mid 90s, he really stressed terrain choice.
    As we traversed passes and draws, would ask us to pick a route and then critique it.
    He really focused on not going into terrain traps, being aware of convexities, staying up on the nose or ridge of zones.

    We dug pits and did layer and crystal analysis, but the thing that made the most sense to me was the terrain choices as being the most important thing.

    Now, about you standing on that rollover Gunder….

    ;-)

    But the social dynamic of social media kind of just amplifies our human failings to be seen as more aggro, more technical, more dominant with whiter, brighter teeth and fresher breath.
    Merde De Glace On the Freak When Ski
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  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by snoqpass View Post
    Reminds me of a local “guide” an his buddy’s that skied a lower elevation peak around here that rarely gets enough snow to ski. A couple days after a trip report on TAY there’s an article in the local paper about their rare descent of said peak, yes they called the paper to do an article on them which I think it’s more that guides seem to need to publish everything the validate their careers
    Just wondering, what would the "guide" in question have to do to lose the quotation marks. From what I understand, at least one of them is certified by the AMGA and works for a reputable guiding service.

  19. #69
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    Hes done some really cool stuff in the mountains but the Mt Si thing was nothing more than a publicity stunt
    I have a responsibility to not be intimidated and bullied by low life losers who abuse what little power is granted to them as ski patrollers.

  20. #70
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    what's "overhype"? Some of the coastal avalanche centers get worked up because the coastal snowpack is suddenly acting like a continental snowpack. If you are in the mindset of a continental snowpack it's "overhype" if you only ski in a coastal snowpack continually stressing it's "not what you are used to" might be useful.

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by californiagrown View Post
    As you well know, that whole valley is pretty much filled with hangfire, and avalanche exposure, yet it is also probably the most popular backcountry spot in the state for equipped and non-equipped alike. probably because the route finding is so easy... follow the creek track.

    IME, knowing the snow part of avy dangers is becoming more and more popular because the information is so easily accessible and easy to understand and digest. BUT, people get into trouble with the route finding and terrain portion of the equation which is much more complex and variable and takes experience and work above and beyond glancing through the latest avy report.

    I realize its a HUUUGE liability issue and would never happen, but i think it would be cool if the avalanche centers recommended a "tour of the day", or a "bad idea tour of the day" based on snow/weather conditions and the terrain involved. Maybe a list of popular tours that are bad ideas that day would help keep folks out of trouble.
    Recommending anything like that is a HUGE liability and not something I would want to be part of. Conditions can change rapidly during the day. What's safe at 9 AM may become a loaded death trap in a few hours.

    I kind of feel that anyone that solely relies on reports to make their decisions is sort of a problem. I mean, everyone has to learn and you can't start out without being a newbie but if people aren't at least trying to learn as much as possible and prefer to just follow others and a report then maybe they should get a different hobby?
    dirtbag, not a dentist

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by toast2266 View Post
    For the info coming from the avy forecasters, it seems like there's a bit of a disconnect as to the intended audience. The over-the-top social media posts, and put-the-fear-of-god-into-you type posts are probably mostly intended for the 20 year old joey who just bought a used touring setup with Dukes from the 2nd hand store, and is gonna go get rad in the "backcountry." He's watched a million web edits of pros skiing perfect pow, and joey wants to get rad. Intelligent, rationale consideration of the risks probably isn't going to happen, but if avy forecasters can at least get a few doom-and-gloom type posts into Joey's feed, then maybe he'll be ever so slightly more conservative in how he approaches his quest for radness. Same goes for the over the top social media / reddit / whatever posts. People who know what they're doing probably aren't basing their decisions on those posts. But hopefully it'll give some pause to the people who don't know what they're doing.
    .
    I think it must be pretty hard to be a forecaster. Like SFB and Foggy and others i like the structured and objective as possible format of Avalanche Canada. But then my mentors were avalanche geeks or professionals and i soaked up the lingo, their effort to be as scientific as possible with an unscientific process & they really stressed getting out in the field under all conditions, getting experience and using their own head and making their own judgments.

    Now I'm going to sound like old man shaking fist at clouds but I see people getting out now with either zero experience or just basic experience (maybe AST level). And they learn how to rappel through youtube. Or read about rad lines through Instagram (Tgr forums are for old pharts). Or they have tinder meetups through facebook groups to plan cool tours where they absolutely have to do that tour because its the weekend. And they have no mentors because (1) there are so many newbs starting so there aren't enough mentors; and (2) experienced people got better things to do then take care of newbs.

    So maybe some of the Avalanche Centres and maybe some of the people who post about shooting cracks or whumpfs on social media are trying as best as they can to try to reach millenial noobs who don't necessarily learn or appreciate avalanche training in the formal sense? I'm not trying to make excuses here. Just trying to appreciate how tough it must be for the avalanche Centres and educators to try to reach out to people with such massively different skill sets and different ways of learning and different ways to absorbing information

    EDIT - also didn't want to single out millenials. Lots of older and middle aged getting into touring (heck it seems like everyone wants to get that sick pow) and they're similarly bewilder me in how they rely so much on interwebz and Youtube learning as opposed to getting out into the field and actually learning.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buster Highmen View Post
    QFT.
    In my mealy little mind, terrain selection is fundamental, primary and for the most part trumps everything else.
    I just finished teaching a Rec L1 this last weekend. We spend as much time as we can on terrain. Theme for the course is "Choose Terrain to match the Conditions." We use the ATES classification (simple- challenging-complex) and try to show people as much terrain as we can: in real life on a full-day and then a half-day tour, then in photos and graphs in class. You can only do so much in a 3-day class. Give them the resources to get out there and not kill themselves, and don't act like idiots.

    I spend a LOT of my life pondering this disconnect, honestly. Digesting information and then making the appropriate choice- it's hard to get beyond the "I want..." factor. We had a great thread going a number of years ago in the Slide Zone by Cookie Monster- he posited the Desire vs Uncertainty conundrum that I use a lot.
    https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...e++uncertainty

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by zion zig zag View Post
    I agree with this. I find it pretty easy to get past the social media overhype of the local avy center and just get the facts that I need. SFB can't seem to get past this with the UAC, he wants all users to be him, but they aren't, and that's great. The UAC probably forecast's for one of the densest user groups in any area, and often, when it comes to this shit, lowest common denominator is the target.
    wrong answer i dont want nobody to be me or like me
    cause if you were me and an outstanding stoke filled member of this community your,coworker ,friend and someone you shared turns with death on your happy place turned into a xmass carol of shit you might feel just a touch differnt
    and i think if you look at the data it may not be this lowest common dumbfuck jerry that is dieing these days
    alec was a good kid and deserves better from professionals members of a community
    "When the child was a child it waited patiently for the first snow and it still does"- Van "The Man" Morrison
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    ski on in eternal peace

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by skifishbum View Post

    and i think if you look at the data it may not be this lowest common dumbfuck jerry that is dieing these days
    Lots of snowmobilers, some resort skiers that poke too far out of bounds and a few knowledgeable folks mixed in. So what could the UAC have done to prevent the deaths of those that are knowledgeable? Was there not enough raw, objective free data in the report for them?

    Quote Originally Posted by skifishbum View Post
    was a good kid and deserves better from professionals members of a community
    Serious question: what does he deserve from the UAC? What should they do, in your mind, to prevent that kind of accident?

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