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  1. #126
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    Feb 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles View Post
    Maybe us selfish fucks should consider mentoring part of our responsibility to the sport instead of pointing to the other guy? I think professional avalanche education is important but I do not think of it as comprehensive training for backcountry skiing.
    That is good advice. Sharon and I do that every year to a few noobs and view it as a public service + good karma for all the mentors who passed it down to us. But like someone else said there are so many noobs compared to the experienced. Someone else said hire a guide for a day or a weekend and you can soak up so much knowledge. Split the cost among the group.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunder View Post
    To be perfectly honest I think this advice is totally useless. In 20 years the only time I have ever measured slope angle or pulled out a compass is when I had to on the CAA forms for my Opps 1.
    Not to detract from the social media discussion or the mentorship discussion but one of the most experienced persons I knew at passing along terrain management and terrain reading would teach us by hanging a clinometer around his neck and forcing us to constantly guesstimate slope angles. After a while you start getting good at it. But it was the constant habit of practise that made you good. Anyhow I see that ISBD already clarified as to it being a teaching tool.

  2. #127
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    Sep 2010
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    Golden, Colorado
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    5,868

    Does social media overhype avy danger?

    Quote Originally Posted by I've seen black diamonds! View Post
    Yeah, this is pretty much all I'm saying. You need to learn what is steep enough to slide so you can stay out of or retreat from avy terrain altogether. And to plan tours where this is possible. One way to do this is by measuring a bunch of slope angles in a number of different ways. You don't need to keep doing this for the rest of your life. After a little practice you can eye ball it remarkably well.

    I'm sure as hell not suggesting that on a given day it will be safe to ski something that is 35 degrees vs 38 (although CAIC does have a habit of recommending folks avoid slopes over 35 degree on moderate days, which I find oddly specific). But here, in the land of the persistent deep layer, it is not a coincidence that if you want to ski up high in open terrain in the winter, and your risk tolerance isn't high, you will often find yourself on slopes between 25-28 degrees, i.e. steep enough to build up some momentum, but not steep enough to slide under most conditions.
    +1

    A big part of the communication problem here seems to be stemming from location. Being around (deep) persistent slabs for most of the year makes me way more sensitive to slope angle than I ever was in the PNW. If there is a decent enough chance of large destructive avalanches with random trigger points you just avoid avalanche terrain - plain and simple. Otherwise you’re just rolling the dice. That just so happens to be the majority of most ski seasons out here in CO, regardless of wind, sun, layers, etc.

    So yeah, identifying slope angle is a pretty critical skill out here. I do play in microterrain on occasion however, but thats more about risk tolerance than decision making to avoid avalanches.

    It sucks seeing avy incidents shoot through the roof back in the PNW when the ‘rarer’ persistent slab problem occurs. But, the train of thought of just simply avoiding avalanche terrain isn’t as omnipresent in that community.
    Last edited by Lindahl; 12-18-2018 at 08:49 PM.

  3. #128
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    Sep 2010
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    303
    The difference between CO and WA, besides the nature of the snow and depth of the snowpack, is that we have lots of great skiing in trees that are never subject to slides (that's right, I said never). Other places have mostly alpine terrain, where pretty much any skiing automatically equates to avy exposure, which leads to relying on really weak science (like pits and slope angles). If you want to be an old backcountry skier, leave the guessing out, and just ski them trees whenever there is any significant doubt.

    As for the original point, the answer around here is unquestionably yes; social media consistently overstates the extent (both geographically and as to probability) of the risk, and its duration. NWAC will almost always say it is High across the entire region whenever there is any significant new snow and social media typically treats High as "it's unsafe to go anywhere outside the resort right now". We named our favorite protected run on East Peak "Certain Death" after a clueless Crystal patroller who told us that was what would surely happen if we ventured up there one day, We've skied that zone many times over many years without incident during High forecasts. As for Gunder and Kyle's recent surprises, well, if you are truly avid, you will eventually discover the reality of spatial variability. I do not view either of them as having made any obviously bad decisions, but their risk tolerance is probably closer to mine than most of the pundits on social media.

  4. #129
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    Nov 2006
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    colorady
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wapow View Post
    The difference between CO and WA, besides the nature of the snow and depth of the snowpack, is that we have lots of great skiing in trees that are never subject to slides (that's right, I said never). Other places have mostly alpine terrain, where pretty much any skiing automatically equates to avy exposure, which leads to relying on really weak science (like pits and slope angles). If you want to be an old backcountry skier, leave the guessing out, and just ski them trees whenever there is any significant doubt.

    As for the original point, the answer around here is unquestionably yes; social media consistently overstates the extent (both geographically and as to probability) of the risk, and its duration. NWAC will almost always say it is High across the entire region whenever there is any significant new snow and social media typically treats High as "it's unsafe to go anywhere outside the resort right now". We named our favorite protected run on East Peak "Certain Death" after a clueless Crystal patroller who told us that was what would surely happen if we ventured up there one day, We've skied that zone many times over many years without incident during High forecasts. As for Gunder and Kyle's recent surprises, well, if you are truly avid, you will eventually discover the reality of spatial variability. I do not view either of them as having made any obviously bad decisions, but their risk tolerance is probably closer to mine than most of the pundits on social media.
    I was pushed into a tree well by an inbounds slide at Mt Baker once and would have died without a partner finding me. Two totally different dynamics of snowpack, I’ll give ya that, but trees aren’t safer in the PNW.

  5. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by flowing alpy View Post
    yeah, he’ll talk about it till one’s blue in the face
    He’s social media IRL.

  6. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by ULLRismyco-pilot View Post
    I was pushed into a tree well by an inbounds slide at Mt Baker once and would have died without a partner finding me. Two totally different dynamics of snowpack, I’ll give ya that, but trees aren’t safer in the PNW.
    yikes. glad you made it.

  7. #132
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    Dec 2015
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    well i just read stuff and haven't done any touring yet but i can say that the first thing that i have always considered a given when i start is that i will not venture to areas steep enough to slide. it seems like the obvious way to eliminate most of the risk.

  8. #133
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    Sep 2010
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    WA
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    I took a 5-day AST2+ class from Colwest out of Kamloops, BC last winter and it was outstanding: every single day was tour planning, touring, and assessment of the day including weather, forecasting hazard, etc etc. Did some snow science, pits, companion rescue, first aid, but just a bit each day; not a shit ton. The focus is on how to manage terrain and conditions, not diagram pits all fucking day, which is why I specifically took this class and not one in the US. 2 guides, stayed in a hut, tons of 1x1 and group feedback. Best class I’ve ever taken by a long shot. Way more practical and less academic. Picked up a ton of things I use all the time. PM me if you want more details.

  9. #134
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    Oct 2004
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    50 miles E of Paradise
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    Quote Originally Posted by ULLRismyco-pilot View Post
    I was pushed into a tree well by an inbounds slide at Mt Baker once and would have died without a partner finding me. Two totally different dynamics of snowpack, I’ll give ya that, but trees aren’t safer in the PNW.
    Yup. Tree wells are their own special hazard in the PNW. More like another way to get your shit fucked up rather than some safe place

  10. #135
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    May 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wapow View Post

    As for Gunder and Kyle's recent surprises, well, if you are truly avid, you will eventually discover the reality of spatial variability. I do not view either of them as having made any obviously bad decisions, but their risk tolerance is probably closer to mine than most of the pundits on social media.
    My risk tolerance is actually quite low. Especially compared to what it was 20 years ago. Loosing as many friends as I have to the mountains over the years will do that to you. Plus I’m in a position where if I tell a client it was too dangerous they trust me. If I told them that 20 years ago I’d be out a job. Thankfully that culture had changed.

    At the end of the day a lot of comes down to exposure time. I’ve actually had very few close calls over the last 20 years especially when you consider how many more days I am on snow then your average weekend warrior. I.E. my yearly average has probably been around 150-200 days a year on snow over the last 20+ years. So that’s just a lot of time out. At some point you are going to make a mistake. So my thought is to do everything possible to limit mistakes and then be as prepared as possible for when they eventually happen. I feel this last close call was just a fluke accident. You just don’t expect an inbounds run to slide after significant avalanche control work.

  11. #136
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    Dec 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunder View Post
    My risk tolerance is actually quite low. Especially compared to what it was 20 years ago. Loosing as many friends as I have to the mountains over the years will do that to you.
    Man can I relate to this.

    I had a lot of 100 to 130 day years. A lot.

    I can't imagine 20+ years of 150 to 200 day years.

    But I've lost a lot of friends and acquaintances. A lot.

    I actually swore off the bc for about a decade because of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    the situation strikes me as WAY too much drama at this point

  12. #137
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    Jan 2011
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    Alta
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    You certainly don't. But I spent a long soul crushing time probing for a girl who was died at snowbird in bounds after extensive control work. And while I'm sure some people skied some steep stuff in the backcountry that day. It taught me that even the most controlled slopes, being controlled by the best patrollers can be dangerous. In the end for me I have one simple rule. I never fuck with persistent weak layers and deep slabs. And every time I mention it to a professional avie person or avid BC skier I get the same awnser. You'll live to ski more that way. In the past I was more likely to take risks. But my philosophy has changed to have more fun for me time . Still down to send big lines and big air but have the patience to wait for things to line up. For me, I ski in the BC when my worries are only about newly deposited snow or changing temps. Simple as that. I don't judge those who have a higher danger threshold not should they judge those whose threshold is lesser. In the end is all about having fun and coming home safe. Terrain selection is your friend and good partners are to. It's a big picture process and each group must paint their own picture. Over hyped or not. I've yet to ever read a forecast that was just plain wrong anywhere. There's anyways good info whether you like the format or forecaster or you hate them. They might bring another color to your picture that wasn't in your palate and that alone is worthy. Stay safe or there. All data helps the WISE, only the fool rejects based upon impulse.


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

  13. #138
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    Feb 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by plugboots View Post
    Attachment 260528

    Pretty straightforward, hype needed?
    And I still watched people head out into avalanche terrain today
    “I have a responsibility to not be intimidated and bullied by low life losers who abuse what little power is granted to them as ski patrollers.”

  14. #139
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    Dec 2004
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    Where the sheets have no stains
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andyski View Post
    I took a 5-day AST2+ class from Colwest out of Kamloops, BC last winter and it was outstanding: every single day was tour planning, touring, and assessment of the day including weather, forecasting hazard, etc etc. Did some snow science, pits, companion rescue, first aid, but just a bit each day; not a shit ton. The focus is on how to manage terrain and conditions, not diagram pits all fucking day, which is why I specifically took this class and not one in the US. 2 guides, stayed in a hut, tons of 1x1 and group feedback. Best class I’ve ever taken by a long shot. Way more practical and less academic. Picked up a ton of things I use all the time. PM me if you want more details.
    One of the over riding reasons why the educational outlets/AAA have divided Professional courses from Recreational courses.

    Sounds like a good course.

  15. #140
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    Dec 2005
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    Closed Area
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    Did somebody say hoar frost?

  16. #141
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    Sep 2010
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    Shuswap Highlands
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andyski View Post
    I took a 5-day AST2+ class from Colwest out of Kamloops, BC last winter and it was outstanding: every single day was tour planning, touring, and assessment of the day including weather, forecasting hazard, etc etc. Did some snow science, pits, companion rescue, first aid, but just a bit each day; not a shit ton. The focus is on how to manage terrain and conditions, not diagram pits all fucking day, which is why I specifically took this class and not one in the US. 2 guides, stayed in a hut, tons of 1x1 and group feedback. Best class I’ve ever taken by a long shot. Way more practical and less academic. Picked up a ton of things I use all the time. PM me if you want more details.
    Another vote for investing in AST2. Long days including the debrief in the evening for an hour or two, but worth every penny.

  17. #142
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    Dec 2003
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    Seattle
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    Quote Originally Posted by flowing alpy View Post
    so like the x country trails?
    Never is a bold statement.

    Safer maybe but too widely spaced to rely on.

    Automatically.
    Quote Originally Posted by Downbound Train View Post
    And there will come a day when our ancestors look back...........

  18. #143
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    Dec 2011
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    5,531
    Never use absolutes.

    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    the situation strikes me as WAY too much drama at this point

  19. #144
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
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    3,896
    Quote Originally Posted by altacoup View Post
    You certainly don't. But I spent a long soul crushing time probing for a girl who was died at snowbird in bounds after extensive control work. And while I'm sure some people skied some steep stuff in the backcountry that day. It taught me that even the most controlled slopes, being controlled by the best patrollers can be dangerous. In the end for me I have one simple rule. I never fuck with persistent weak layers and deep slabs. And every time I mention it to a professional avie person or avid BC skier I get the same awnser. You'll live to ski more that way. In the past I was more likely to take risks. But my philosophy has changed to have more fun for me time . Still down to send big lines and big air but have the patience to wait for things to line up. For me, I ski in the BC when my worries are only about newly deposited snow or changing temps. Simple as that. I don't judge those who have a higher danger threshold not should they judge those whose threshold is lesser. In the end is all about having fun and coming home safe. Terrain selection is your friend and good partners are to. It's a big picture process and each group must paint their own picture. Over hyped or not. I've yet to ever read a forecast that was just plain wrong anywhere. There's anyways good info whether you like the format or forecaster or you hate them. They might bring another color to your picture that wasn't in your palate and that alone is worthy. Stay safe or there. All data helps the WISE, only the fool rejects based upon impulse.


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
    Despite the grammar, this is a great POV.

  20. #145
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    Feb 2008
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    Udapimp
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    972
    They might bring another color to your picture that wasn't in your palate and that alone is worthy. Stay safe or there. All data helps the WISE, only the fool rejects based upon impulse.
    embrace the gape
    and believe

  21. #146
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    Aug 2007
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    United States of Aburdistan
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    Quote Originally Posted by altacoup View Post
    You certainly don't. But I spent a long soul crushing time probing for a girl who was died at snowbird in bounds after extensive control work. And while I'm sure some people skied some steep stuff in the backcountry that day.
    Sorry man, I was there too. We found one of her skis in the lower ampitheater and got people to start probing below it before ski patrol came and took over. it was a tough search.

    I like your philosophy though on when to go out. If it's a super tricky day, it's so easy to just hold back rather than try to put a million puzzle pieces together to see if you are going to ski or die.

  22. #147
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    Nov 2002
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    This thread prompted me to actually look at some social media. Here is the CAICs Insta

    https://www.instagram.com/coavalancheinfo/

    If you got any to share (good or bad), lets post them up here.

  23. #148
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    Jan 2014
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    Gaperville, CO
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles View Post
    This thread prompted me to actually look at some social media. Here is the CAICs Insta

    https://www.instagram.com/coavalancheinfo/

    If you got any to share (good or bad), lets post them up here.
    That strikes me as a 100% reasonable and informative post given the accident at hand.

  24. #149
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    Dec 2003
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    Seattle
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    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXK...UUgjzFQ/videos

    The Northwest Snow and Avalanche Workshop presentations posted on youtube by NWAC
    Quote Originally Posted by Downbound Train View Post
    And there will come a day when our ancestors look back...........

  25. #150
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    Apr 2016
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    1,064
    Quote Originally Posted by doebedoe View Post
    That strikes me as a 100% reasonable and informative post given the accident at hand.
    Same. And I don't know anything about the skiers involved in the avalanche, but it seems like social media didn't overhype anything as far as they were concerned. They still found themselves on the type of slope likely to slide.

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