Sentinel vs. Patrol

[Andeh]

I want to get a new ride early next year, and am about 90% set on a carbon Sentinel, but keep having some nagging doubts. Specifically, I'm somewhat concerned by the moderate/low leverage ratio (~11%) compared to the Patrol (25%).

I'm currently on a Nomad 3 (medium) that's plenty well upgraded (36 RC2 w/ 2019 air shaft & Luftkappe, DHX2, LB 38/DT240 wheels, X01 Eagle, etc.). I'm <5'8" & 160-165 lbs depending on how much beer I've been drinking. What I don't like about this bike is the climbing (if I want to even consider pedaling out of the saddle, I have to have the shock on firm) and the short reach (ETT is fine). I have a 29er Chameleon and about the only thing I like about it is how the big wheels track when going fast... they don't get deflected around as easily. I've previously had a Mojo HDR 650b and hated DW-link... it pedals fine but skips around on small bump and bottoms out easily. I won't lie - part of the reason I want to upgrade now is so that I can jump on the LT 29 bandwagon while I can still get some money for my non-boost 27.5 stuff.

I've test rode a GG Trail Pistol and a carbon Sentinel (GX build). I really, really like the steep STA on both. That's a must have for whatever bike I buy. I definitely liked the rollover from the 29 wheels on both also. I didn't like the really high feeling on the GG, probably a combination of its high BB and generally firm suspension. The guy I borrowed it from was a bit heavier than me but ran his suspension really firm. I felt that even in "plush" it still kind of skipped around. Pedaled nicely though. The fit of the Sentinel felt perfect. It didn't feel too short or too long, or too high or too low. I did notice that the longer length did require a bit more muscle to whip through back to back berms. On the other hand, in the turns it felt like carving on skis, which I felt was a cool sensation. It was ridiculously stable through rough and steep. The only things that gave me pause were the weight (no big deal, I'll build frame up and be 2 lbs lighter than the demo build), and I struggled a bit to get pop off of jumps. That said, I spent all of 5 minutes setting up suspension in the parking lot, and I have no idea what volume spacer the stock shock had, and the demo bike had the Performance (no LSC adjust) DPX2 and 36 (GRIP 1 damper), so I'm certain my setup was not great.

I live coastside in the Bay Area, usually riding around Pacifica/El Granada, or down in UCSC. I'd self critique my skill level as advanced but not expert. Trails here are mostly fast and flowy, few rocky sections. There aren't a lot of steeps but they are there if you know where to look. Jumps are as big as you have the balls for, but closing in on 40 & being a dad means I'm not going to be hitting anything huge. That said, jumping is probably the area I'm trying to progress most at, so I do want to make sure I have a bike that encourages it.

Am I overthinking my concern with having enough progressiveness built into the frame? I know I could easily pop in a larger volume reducer to help with that. I have little desire to stay on a coil, due to how I struggle to get pop with it on my Nomad.

If it is a legitimate concern, I think the Patrol is my next best bet. It ticks all the boxes except 29. I've pretty much ruled out the GG Smash for reasons above. Likewise Ripmo due to my experiences with DW-link and negative reviews. Capra 29 would probably work except its not actually available (and is pressfit / no water bottle). Pole bikes are too big for me (can't use 150mm dropper). Yeti is too expensive. Stumpy Evo ticks a most of the boxes but has a crazy low BB and not available as a frame, plus the stock components are junk (I'd strip literally every component except fork and shock, and those would get sent to Dirt Labs for upgrades).

[SchralphMacchio]

I don’t think 29ers are more difficult to get airborne or pop than other wheel sizes, I think on small features trying to whip the rear end off and around things is more a function of the chainstay, BB placement, and suspension. I also previously 29ers weren’t nimble until I got on a GG Pedalhead, and figured it must have been the combo of ultra low BB and ultra short chainstay made it so easy to pop off anything. But maybe the front triangle plays a bigger role than I acknowledge... anyways go 29. I figure, “why not?”

On the location subject, except for Pacifica, I always felt 160mm was more than necessary for Bay Area. My speed went up on East Bay and Marin trails when I took my fork down to 150 from 160 on my Bronson. As a result I always felt that a 5010 with a long dual position fork, like 120/150, would be the ultimate Bay Area riding machine. Throw in the coil shock for ultimate dream machine. Of course Tahoe and road trips ideally would want the longer travel.

By that same logic, a Smuggler would be great for the Bay Area and Sentinel for road trips. Smuggler gets a shorter chainstay and lower BB height, which should give you a more playful and nimble feel on the local UCSC and Skeggs loops, easier to pop off stuff. Figured I’d throw that in there as something to consider.

Re GG vs Transition ... Did you notice the Smash has the same BB height and shorter chainstay than the Sentinel? I think that riding high feel on your TP demo might have been the stack height of the cockpit, which is higher on GG than Transition geometry. And come on, riding a bike with improper suspension spring rate is never a good way to form conclusions! Might be worth another try if you can get on a properly set up Smash ...

Re Sentinel length / wheelbase ... It’s just a hair longer than the Smash, but truly a massively long wheelbase. Looks fun as hell to ride unless you live somewhere with a million switchbacks ... thankfully not too many of those on the coast.

I have no comments on suspension curve for landing giant hits vs shock tuning ... seems like I see people with good skills sending huge stuff with all kinds of suspension types, so I always figured it had more to do with skill than suspension. But I will say that when I have my shock set up more progressive, it dampens really well over high speed chunder and lands well but it gives me less pop on takeoff than I like. I wonder if a coil would help with that instead of a small air shock ...

Good luck! Always fun nerding out on the next major gear distraction ...

[toast2266]

Sentinel for speed. Patrol for fun.

Unless your definition of fun = speed. In which case, Sentinel.

[Banh Mi]

Sentinel for speed. Patrol for fun.

Unless your definition of fun = speed. In which case, Sentinel.

I agree with this


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[adrenalated]

Sentinel for speed. Patrol for fun.

Unless your definition of fun = speed. In which case, Sentinel.

I've ridden both (bought a Patrol) and this pretty much covers it.

[carlh]

I have a sentinel and also looked at the GG smash, they are very similar bikes but the fit is a bit different and the GG suspension if firmer. Comparing the 2 transitions I would base your decision on wheel size, I don't like small wheels they feel twitchy and don't roll as well but that is only my opinion. I think the progression on the 2 frames is a lot closer than your numbers so I wouldn't worry about it unless you are dead set on a coil shock.

[North]

I'll second Schralph's suggestion of at least considering something with less travel than a Patrol or Sentinal.

Your description of the trails you frequent and your interest in progressing on jumps makes me think Smuggler vs Scout more than Sentinal vs Patrol.

[toast2266]

For pop on jumps, I find that the differences between bikes and leverage ratios is only really noticeable on fairly small stuff. If you're looking to pop off a root, rock, or very small lip, some bikes will be more inclined to press off of them, while others will largely absorb them.

But for anything that I'd actually call a jump (meaning that there's a pile of dirt that's at least a bike length long), I don't think the leverage ratio matters all that much. Don't get me wrong - different bikes and different suspension tunes will feel a bit different, but that mostly just affects your timing for the pump and pop off the lip. In other words, if you're used to your bike, the suspension kinematics aren't going to hold you back from getting just as much pop and airtime as you would with any other bike.

Caveats: 1) Bikes that are substantially longer can feel funny on small, abrupt lips, 2) notwithstanding all of the above, bikes with more travel and slacker angles are more forgiving of mistakes, and 3) this isn't really relevant to any of the bikes being discussed here, but bikes with a substantially rearward axle path are an exception to my "kinematics don't matter than much" argument, because those things do kinda jump weird.

[Andeh]

Thanks for the input all.

A few responses to comments here:
* regarding height of GG TP (or Smash) vs. Sentinel. Fair point about the GG BB height being the same or lower. I'm guessing the sensation mostly came from the pretty firm suspension, and a bit from the crazy high stack height on a medium. If I size into a small GG (I think is more accurate for me), stack gets closer.
* for me, speed = fun. I'm admittedly not super coordinated so I'm not trying to do whips or whatever the kids call it when they do things with their bikes in the air beyond just trying to not crash. This is why I'm gravitating towards 29/Sentinel... faster on straight-aways, more stable (so use less brakes) on steeps.
* related to above, I feel like 160mm fork seems appropriate for my technique or occasional lack thereof. My Nomad has a 170 now (up from stock 160) but that was to raise the BB up mostly. I've run 140mm forks and they feel just a tad short for how I ride. I do periodically use all my fork when I botch landings or stepdowns.
* I don't really have any desire to continue to run coil. Its heavy, and costs $130 for a new spring if the calculator wasn't accurate (or you get heavier). It also makes it hard to swap bikes with friends if they're a substantially different weight.

I guess another way to look at things would be: what's the difference between running a coil (linear shock) on a progressive frame compared to running an air shock (with bigger tokens) on a nearly linear frame? Intuitively, it should have the same result.

[toast2266]

Coil on a progressive frame vs air on a linear frame are only similar with respect to how progressive the bike might feel. There's still huge differences in how they'll feel with respect to small bump sensitivity (coil has way less seals, and thus is far more supple). Air shocks also tend to be tuned more towards pedaling efficiency and support, whereas coils tend to be tuned more for bump absorption, but that obviously varies a bit from shock to shock.

[carlh]

MRP also has a progressive spring coming out soon for the hazzard. Should see testing on the sentinel soon. If I find a bunch of money to waste I would try it, but would probably spring for wheels first.

OP: if you want to go fast and are willing to drive a bike that errs on going straight the sentinel will be awesome. Its like a set of skis with a 30m+ radius stable and always accelerating.

[Andeh]

OP: if you want to go fast and are willing to drive a bike that errs on going straight the sentinel will be awesome. Its like a set of skis with a 30m+ radius stable and always accelerating.

Hmm no coincidence then that my last set of skis was a set of Lotus 120s (32m radius), which I love.

[toast2266]

MRP also has a progressive spring coming out soon for the hazzard. Should see testing on the sentinel soon. If I find a bunch of money to waste I would try it, but would probably spring for wheels first.

That'll be interesting. Progressive rate springs in the bike world are 95% bullshit, so I'm curious to see if mrp is making something that's actually legit.

[Eluder]

I've been debating this same thing. I had an alloy GX Patrol for the fall and loved it, this prompted me to sell it and another bike so I could build up a carbon one. I've been going back and forth on trying something similar but different (the Sentinel) or sticking to the plan and building what I know will be great.

The leverage ratio is the one thing that is holding me up on trying a Sentinel. I had a Yeti 5.5 last summer that I really didn't like, I attributed this to the rear suspension. I could never get it right and have a pretty good understanding of how to set a bike up, my main challenge is I am pretty light but ride harder than your average Joey. Basically I was forced to ride the harshest rear end I can remember. I was super stoked for this bike when I brought it to Moab last spring for its first ride.... I have to admit I was pretty bummed on how it rode there and we never really got along the rest of the summer. I don't have anytime on the Sentinel so no direct comparison but that fear mixed with me being short and liking steep terrain I think Im sticking with the Patrol.

[Andeh]

If you're even shorter than me (5'-7.75") and want a 29er with "new" geometry but a bit more progressive, you might wait until spring and check out the carbon Stumpjumper Evo when it comes out. It's so low and slack that most people run it in "high" setting. Even that's like a 64 HTA and 334 BB. The regular '18 SJ has a slightly more progressive leverage ratio than the Sentinel (like 16% vs. 11% by my calcs) and I think the EVO is more so, because I know a lot of people are talking about running a coil on it. Their smallest size is roughly equivalent to a medium Sentinel though, so if you're a small you might be SOL unless you like REALLY long bikes for your height.
The main reason I'm not doing this is because a) I'm impatient and b) I don't want to buy a full bike at Spec's inflated prices. If I knew for certain that they'd sell framesets, I'd probably wait myself, but the rumors I'm hearing from someone who works there is just a complete bike.

[adrenalated]

and c) Transition is a small company run by rad people and Specialized is, well, Specialized

[Eluder]

If you're even shorter than me (5'-7.75") and want a 29er with "new" geometry but a bit more progressive, you might wait until spring and check out the carbon Stumpjumper Evo when it comes out. It's so low and slack that most people run it in "high" setting. Even that's like a 64 HTA and 334 BB. The regular '18 SJ has a slightly more progressive leverage ratio than the Sentinel (like 16% vs. 11% by my calcs) and I think the EVO is more so, because I know a lot of people are talking about running a coil on it. Their smallest size is roughly equivalent to a medium Sentinel though, so if you're a small you might be SOL unless you like REALLY long bikes for your height.
The main reason I'm not doing this is because a) I'm impatient and b) I don't want to buy a full bike at Spec's inflated prices. If I knew for certain that they'd sell framesets, I'd probably wait myself, but the rumors I'm hearing from someone who works there is just a complete bike.

I'm the same height and alway ride a medium. The biggest problem for me is steep shit and the tire up my ass. I have been pondering an evo but the BB is stupid low which would make the tire go even farther up I would think not to mention the rock strikes. That all being said we sell both brands so it goes in and out of the consideration as well.

[JLF1200]

...especially with Transitions. These are weird bikes.

They punch way above their 'travel class' because of their long reach, overbuilt frames and stable front-ends (mix of head angle and lots of trail). Both the Patrol and Sentinel are huge, aggro bikes. Because of their reduced rear travel and poppy shock setup, they still respond better to input compared to a Specialized Enduro or any of the more vague, couch-like enduro bikes out there, but they're still pretty boring unless you're hauling ass down a fall line or sending giant stuff.

I test rode a Scout and a Sentinel and went with a Scout simply because of the way it nukes turns. But it's also just more bike than I expected it to be on paper. I am still pretty blown away that a "little" bike can be so aggressive and still this precise, but it speaks to the importance of geometry and the mistake of emphasizing suspension travel. My good friend likes 29" wheels and he can't stop raving about his Smuggler. For background, we both prefer riding rocky, nasty shit at stupid speeds. Neither of us like flow trails and we don't really care about styling jump lines. I was agonizing between the little and big bikes in their lineup but after the test ride it was an easy decision, because I felt like the small bike opened up more fun on average trails and wasn't really gonna hold me back on fast, technical stuff. The only reason I'd upgrade to a Patrol/Sentinel at this point is if I decided to get serious about a full season of enduro racing, but that would definitely be at the expense of fun on my local trails in the foothills area east of Sacramento.

Having lived in the Bay for about 10 years I can say with certainty that you should at least find a way to swing a leg over the Scout/Smuggler before you pull the trigger on any bike. They are enough for anything in Pacifica, and they'll still be a blast on normal trails like Skeggs. Nothing in SC is nasty enough to call for the extra travel with these bikes, particularly.

In terms of the leverage rates, they are all pretty linear and you really shouldn't run coils on them. That will not go well for you. They come stock with pretty large volume reducers in custom-tuned shocks as it is, and they depend on the shock to deliver the intended ride characteristics.

Sizing: they're long. I'm 5'9, I like really big bikes, and my medium feels great.

[JLF1200]

...I should also mention that I am indeed considering trading out my Scout for a Sentinel-- but only because I really want to do some gravity racing this year, and I won't do enough to justify a DH bike in my garage. I would rather add capability with wheel size (Sentinel) than with travel (Patrol) for a host of reasons, but most importantly because this keeps the bike usable in a wider variety of conditions.

[smartyiak]

Anyone else waiting to see if there's a new SC Hightower just around the corner? Asking for a friend!

[BlueBison]

Anyone else waiting to see if there's a new SC Hightower just around the corner? Asking for a friend!

I'm getting ready to sell my Hightower and have a Bronson on the way to hold me over until the release...

I would also agree with JLF, the smaller travel transitions hold their own extremely well and are super fun and capable bikes for all but super gnarly enduro racing.

[robnow]

I'm hearing March (which could tie in with the start of the EWS season on the 26th) for long travel 29er launch and then later for regular Hightower.

[Andeh]

Anyone else waiting to see if there's a new SC Hightower just around the corner? Asking for a friend!

When I started looking into new bikes last year, I was ready to wait for the new HT, but after I rode a couple bikes with steep STAs and saw that the new Bronson didn't get there, I'm doubtful that SC is going to go all in on "forward geometry" as I'd like. Too bad, because I love the build quality of mine. I'm sure it will be a nice bike and sell gazillions, but assuming it's essentially a 29" Bronson, I personally would take a pass on it.

[NorCalSJK]

Jumping in on the thread, question about sizing.

I'm in the market for a Smuggler (moving on from my V2 Bronson- just too much bike for 99% of what I ride). I'm in SF Bay Area (ride Briones, Annadel, UCSC, occasionally Auburn, etc). Thinking a mid-travel 29er will suit me perfect.

How is sizing on the transition line? I ride a Sz. L Bronson, which fits me perfect. I'm 5'10", longer torso vs. legs. I'd like to have at least a 125mm dropper, which I think would work on the large frame.

Any thoughts? I'm leaning towards large in the Transition line.

[Andeh]

I'd say definitely a large for you. Compare the ETT vs your current bike, it should be very close to your Santa Cruz.

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