The 300g Touring Binding Thread

[stuntmanbo]

Thank you both. Should have written: the skis are more resort skis but I'll be skiing them in the back-country mostly. Does that open it up to something lighter? I have skied ATKs and loved them, so would be happy to settle there.

I mounted a BMX 105 (2150g) with the R12 + freeride spacer, honestly I'm not sure I would want something lighter than that with that kind of ski. The thing is, since the ski is quite beefy, you can go faster than with a regular touring ski and imo it make sense to have a quite beefy binding and also it should be more durable. With a lighter ski you don't go as fast and can use a lighter binding, that's how I see things.

[Benneke10]

I buy my ATK from France mostly... Telemark-Pyrenees, great retailer. The Crest and Kuluar are the lightest and cheapest options with brakes

[jacob_dbu]

I really see no reason to go with any other binding than ATK except for price. They are just built right and they've got everything from 150g to 350g bindings depending on what you want.

The only other thing you could go with is a Tecton/Kingpin/Shift if you are looking for more of a 50/50 binding.

[Spyderjon]

Any recommendations for a touring binding with brake? Something to match a 95 underfoot ski for "genuine" touring and uphill resort skiing that arent the MTN..?

(ATK a bit difficult to source in France)

I'm an ATK dealer in the UK and regularly ship worldwide, including a lot to France.

[ddraver]

That in itself is a bit weird tho, innit Jon...

(With respect)

[brutah]

Damn! I don’t like to hear that either. I’d arrived at a pretty good feeling about MTN’s. I’ll have to do better preflight checks.


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Yea I was pretty bummed too. I was pretty invested in the binding, having bought 4 pairs over the years. The toe pin shearing off we're both bindings bought last year. Broke one, got store credit and used it on another pair, proceeded to break it in the same way again. Both failures were on bindings that hadn't seen that much use (under 30 days, less for the 2nd pair).

I'm also 6'2", 225 lbs and an aggressive skier, but the toe pin shearing off is a first for me. Dynafits and plums seem to hold up a lot better in my experience.

I've heard other people have issues with the toe springs wearing down as they get older and getting sloppy. I've also heard of more people having issues with slop in the heel tower.

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[JRainey]

I’ve also been rocking frankenbindings for five years. Shimmed dynafit radical toe with Plum 165 heel for super flat delta. Exactly which heel are you using?

Sorry, missed this before. I've got a couple pairs of FreeRaider 14 1.0 heel pieces from ATK. The 1.0 can be separated from the adjustment track. I currently have them flat mounted (no fore-aft adjustment) with Radical toes, on some Ravens and Down CD4s. I'll probably go back to an adjustment track for the next pair as my boots are entering the Autumn of their wonderful lives'.

Also thinking about the Titan Vario 2s...

[gregL]

. . . plums seem to hold up a lot better in my experience . . .

Guess who makes the MTN toepieces?

[Benneke10]

Can someone explain to me why Dynafit Radical toe pieces are so commonly used with different heel pieces? I am genuinely curious - I have noticed a lot of very experienced skiers I respect using Radical toes in conjunction with different model/brand heels. They look confidence inspiring but I guess I haven’t had any issues with toe pieces in my short touring career, I’ve only owned G3, ATK and Trab.

[gregL]

Can someone explain to me why Dynafit Radical toe pieces are so commonly used with different heel pieces? I am genuinely curious - I have noticed a lot of very experienced skiers I respect using Radical toes in conjunction with different model/brand heels. They look confidence inspiring but I guess I haven’t had any issues with toe pieces in my short touring career, I’ve only owned G3, ATK and Trab.

Steel toe arms, not aluminum.

[retirwntm]

Can someone explain to me why Dynafit Radical toe pieces are so commonly used with different heel pieces? I am genuinely curious - I have noticed a lot of very experienced skiers I respect using Radical toes in conjunction with different model/brand heels. They look confidence inspiring but I guess I haven’t had any issues with toe pieces in my short touring career, I’ve only owned G3, ATK and Trab.

Steel as opposed to aluminum per above and I think that dynafit solved the issue that made the toes uninspiring to me in the past with that toes set of upgrades. The power tower or wtfever they called it made the toe springs less prone to flexing open when putting them on any kind of edge angle or pressure.

That made them much more inspiring to lay a ski on edge rather than using them mostly flat on 3d snow. The older versions always opened up on me when I tried to put them on edge. I could see the toe wings open under my feet when I’d do it and knew an ejection was coming soon unless I got lucky and could get them back to neutral before the toe angled out.

Meanwhile, in fall lines that required no squirrelly ski release you could always take your chances and lock out the toes. That almost guaranteed no release unless that on edge power transfer issue. So if you skied a line and did it with a more neutral stance you’d be ok with the toe springs.

That’s the one thing dynafit has/ had going for it and I assume it’s patented. The old toes and heels lost patent and that’s when all the copycat products all came to market. Often with minor improvements or tweaks. Kingpins tried 3 toe springs. Seems like maybe that created too much force since they had some issues with release or breakage. Not a bad idea but the power tower thing seems as close to perfect as you can currently come while still using a lightweight dynafit toe jaw / pin system.

I could be talking out my ass on all this. That was my experience and observations along the way.


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[rod9301]

Mtn toes are really good. I never pre released with them, and any dynafit did not work.

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[rob stokes]

Steel as opposed to aluminum per above and I think that dynafit solved the issue that made the toes uninspiring to me in the past with that toes set of upgrades. The power tower or wtfever they called it made the toe springs less prone to flexing open when putting them on any kind of edge angle or pressure.

That made them much more inspiring to lay a ski on edge rather than using them mostly flat on 3d snow. The older versions always opened up on me when I tried to put them on edge. I could see the toe wings open under my feet when I’d do it and knew an ejection was coming soon unless I got lucky and could get them back to neutral before the toe angled out.

Meanwhile, in fall lines that required no squirrelly ski release you could always take your chances and lock out the toes. That almost guaranteed no release unless that on edge power transfer issue. So if you skied a line and did it with a more neutral stance you’d be ok with the toe springs.

That’s the one thing dynafit has/ had going for it and I assume it’s patented. The old toes and heels lost patent and that’s when all the copycat products all came to market. Often with minor improvements or tweaks. Kingpins tried 3 toe springs. Seems like maybe that created too much force since they had some issues with release or breakage. Not a bad idea but the power tower thing seems as close to perfect as you can currently come while still using a lightweight dynafit toe jaw / pin system.

I could be talking out my ass on all this. That was my experience and observations along the way.


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I echo this. Hated the old style toes because of that issue but those power towers changed it all for me.

Interestingly I never had that toe eject issue on Kingpins or Alpinist though.

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[cravenmorhead]

Whelp, broke my first Marker Alpinist heel. Sorta. The main tower of the heel piece started to float over the base and I can wobble it back and forth. Not sure what's going on - local shop figures it's a warranty return. Basically the little white section sandwiched by black bits shouldn't be showing - the black bits should be flush with each other.

[auvgeek]

Can someone explain to me why Dynafit Radical toe pieces are so commonly used with different heel pieces? I am genuinely curious - I have noticed a lot of very experienced skiers I respect using Radical toes in conjunction with different model/brand heels. They look confidence inspiring but I guess I haven’t had any issues with toe pieces in my short touring career, I’ve only owned G3, ATK and Trab.

I am (or used to be) one of those people. I've skied the Steel speed rad toe with various heels -- first the speed turn and later settled on the SSL 2.0 heel on a number of skis.

Like others have mentioned, the steel speed rad toe is the first confidence-inspiring tech toe, with the power towers and steel toe wings.

That said, I was in the skimo retail store a year or two ago (killing time before a job interview) and started chatting with them about toes. The guys at skimo said they haven't seen many failures of the steel speed rad toe ... but they'd seen ZERO failures of the Ski Trab toe. So I bought a pair of the Ski Trab toes and paired them with my trusty SSL 2.0 heels. I much prefer the Ski Trab toe for retention (though it's a bit of a pain to get into without the special tech fittings). I'll be mounting future SSL 2.0 heels with the Ski Trab toe, and I like it so much that I'm consider re-mounting to replace the Speed Rad toe.

I can easily twist out of the unlocked speed rad toe in tour mode. Like say, I step into the toes and then bend down to rotate the heels before locking my toes. I definitely twist out of the speed rad doing this simple movement, but I haven't yet twisted out of the unlocked Ski Trab toes. I have always skied my dynafit toes "locked one clock" but I ski the trab toes totally unlocked (except in consequential terrain).

[auvgeek]

Okay, now a question for the you all

I'm so excited to have some touring skis on the way for next season (custom 187 ON3P Woodsman 110 Tour), and I'm trying to decide on a binding.

As alluded to in my post above, the Dynafit SSL 2.0 heel and Ski Trab toe is my current favorite binding combo. I max out the RV to 12. I hope these skis will last me a good long while, and my boots (Vulcans) only have a season or two left in them. So unfortunately, I need an adjustable heel.

My prior experience with heel adjustment via set screws (Plum) is the adjustment screws can come loose and the binding can move at an inopportune time (like while descending the Col du Cristaux).

I had pretty much decided on Ski Trab Titan Vario.2, but a friend bought a pair and I don't love the idea of having to twist to get between the top two riser heights. I don't mind twisting for flat because I only really do it for truly long, flat skinning, but I do go between med & high riser heights on the SSL somewhat often.

Before I switched to the SSL 2.0 heels, I had tried the Marker Kingpin and the Dynafit Speed Turn. I think the SSL 2.0 heel skis as well as either. Everyone talks about power transfer of the Kingpin heel ... but frankly I didn't really notice it much.

Anyway, options I'm considering:

1. SSL 2.0 heels mounted on B&D adjustment plate + ATK Freeride space. Ski Trab toe (with the Gara Titan spacer to keep ramp angle closer to my current combo). Cons: entering the heel in pow with the RV at 12 is a serious endeavor.

2. ATK Freeraider 14. Little heavier than I'd like -- 380 g vs like 200 g for option 1 . Does anyone know if the Evo for next season has the same mount pattern as the current FR?

3. ATK Freeraider 14 heel and Ski Trab toe frankenbinding. Leaning this direction, but I might have to buy a whole FR 14 and also Ski Trab toes = $$$. Ramp angle works out to be a bit more than my current setup, but about the same as the stock FR 14. Still weighs more, but excited about the overall package here.

Does anyone know if you can remove the brakes on the FR 14 while keeping the freeride spacer? Any idea on the weight savings of removing the brakes? I recall other brakes can add like 75g ish...?

Anybody have input here?

[Climbers Right]

Brakes are 50grams ish. They aren't very robust. I canned mine but i don't like brakes. Mine came out to 345g with a decently heavy 30g shim. There is a brakeless spacer you can use if the opening bothers you. I don't. It's never been a problem.

Freeride Spacer works with no brakes

I'd look at the FR16. It's under $500 in Europe now. Or the moment Voyager. Both have a ~7mm Delta vs the standard 11 for the FR14

[Westcoaster]

Okay, now a question for the you all

I'm so excited to have some touring skis on the way for next season (custom 187 ON3P Woodsman 110 Tour), and I'm trying to decide on a binding.

As alluded to in my post above, the Dynafit SSL 2.0 heel and Ski Trab toe is my current favorite binding combo. I max out the RV to 12. I hope these skis will last me a good long while, and my boots (Vulcans) only have a season or two left in them. So unfortunately, I need an adjustable heel.

My prior experience with heel adjustment via set screws (Plum) is the adjustment screws can come loose and the binding can move at an inopportune time (like while descending the Col du Cristaux).

I had pretty much decided on Ski Trab Titan Vario.2, but a friend bought a pair and I don't love the idea of having to twist to get between the top two riser heights. I don't mind twisting for flat because I only really do it for truly long, flat skinning, but I do go between med & high riser heights on the SSL somewhat often.

Before I switched to the SSL 2.0 heels, I had tried the Marker Kingpin and the Dynafit Speed Turn. I think the SSL 2.0 heel skis as well as either. Everyone talks about power transfer of the Kingpin heel ... but frankly I didn't really notice it much.

Anyway, options I'm considering:

1. SSL 2.0 heels mounted on B&D adjustment plate + ATK Freeride space. Ski Trab toe (with the Gara Titan spacer to keep ramp angle closer to my current combo). Cons: entering the heel in pow with the RV at 12 is a serious endeavor.

2. ATK Freeraider 14. Little heavier than I'd like -- 380 g vs like 200 g for option 1 . Does anyone know if the Evo for next season has the same mount pattern as the current FR?

3. ATK Freeraider 14 heel and Ski Trab toe frankenbinding. Leaning this direction, but I might have to buy a whole FR 14 and also Ski Trab toes = $$$. Ramp angle works out to be a bit more than my current setup, but about the same as the stock FR 14. Still weighs more, but excited about the overall package here.

Does anyone know if you can remove the brakes on the FR 14 while keeping the freeride spacer? Any idea on the weight savings of removing the brakes? I recall other brakes can add like 75g ish...?

Anybody have input here?

Run the fr without the fr spacer and the brakes, you're at 300g. Fr14 toes are good.

[Benneke10]

I can easily twist out of the unlocked speed rad toe in tour mode. Like say, I step into the toes and then bend down to rotate the heels before locking my toes. I definitely twist out of the speed rad doing this simple movement, but I haven't yet twisted out of the unlocked Ski Trab toes. I have always skied my dynafit toes "locked one clock" but I ski the trab toes totally unlocked (except in consequential terrain).

While I love the Trab toe and think it is the best available, I know there have been a couple failures but super rare and I still trust them. The Trab toe does not provide enough retention for firm snow kickturns unlocked, in fact my friend came out of his unlocked Trab toe while skinning yesterday afternoon. I came out of my toes skinning a few times and now I almost always skin with the toes locked which is fine. It definitely provides more retention than any other toe unlocked, including the ATK Raider toes which like the Dynafits are not functional at all for skinning unless you are locked out.

I think you should try the Vario.2, the flap-over-pins riser is higher than on skimo race bindings and is high enough for most skinning. For me it is more important to be able to transition from skinning to skiing without rotating the heel, but I understand that doesn't really matter if you're using the high riser since you have to rotate regardless. For what its worth the Trab heels are very smooth and rotating is no problem even on the beefy high release version. For those who like high risers I understand the critical importance of having 2 riser options that flip over the heel flaps, because bending over to turn the heel sucks whether its while skinning or transitioning. The only bindings I know of with that feature are the Plum Oazo (maybe not enough retention for you), Salomon/Atomic MTN and ATK Raider.

For those who are Raider-curious, CCBC has these older Raiders for $400 new but with 82mm brake only. Good deal if you want to remove the brake https://cripplecreekbc.com/products/...12-2-0-binding

[rod9301]

The mtn toe provides a ton of retention.
I never lock my toes skinning and never came out, ice or not.

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[auvgeek]

While I love the Trab toe and think it is the best available, I know there have been a couple failures but super rare and I still trust them. The Trab toe does not provide enough retention for firm snow kickturns unlocked, in fact my friend came out of his unlocked Trab toe while skinning yesterday afternoon. I came out of my toes skinning a few times and now I almost always skin with the toes locked which is fine. It definitely provides more retention than any other toe unlocked, including the ATK Raider toes which like the Dynafits are not functional at all for skinning unless you are locked out.

Very helpful, thanks!! I have been curious if the ATK Raider toes are similar to the Ski Trab ones. My knowledge on failures (through skimoco) is clearly a bit stale, and the number of Trab toes in NA has clearly increased over the past 2 years since I chatted with them.

I think you should try the Vario.2, the flap-over-pins riser is higher than on skimo race bindings and is high enough for most skinning. For me it is more important to be able to transition from skinning to skiing without rotating the heel, but I understand that doesn't really matter if you're using the high riser since you have to rotate regardless. For what its worth the Trab heels are very smooth and rotating is no problem even on the beefy high release version.

I don't care too much about having to rotate the heel to transition from skinning to skiing on this particular setup. I transition much quicker on my lighter setups, but for this one, I'll usually have to put my Vulcan tongues in, get my helmet out, etc.

I'll have to think more about the Vario.2. I'm drawn to the adjustable release and freeride space of the Raider, but maybe those features aren't necessary for me.

For those who like high risers I understand the critical importance of having 2 riser options that flip over the heel flaps, because bending over to turn the heel sucks whether its while skinning or transitioning. The only bindings I know of with that feature are the Plum Oazo (maybe not enough retention for you), Salomon/Atomic MTN and ATK Raider.

Yeah, if the Oazo had a RV in the 12-14 range, I'd be more interested. I have other skis for meadow skipping -- I was hoping to charge a bit on this setup.

[Benneke10]

I'll have to think more about the Vario.2. I'm drawn to the adjustable release and freeride space of the Raider, but maybe those features aren't necessary for me.

Sounds like the Raider would make a lot of sense for you just for the riser options, but once you start using Trab its hard to use anything else. You can use the ATK Universal spacer with the Vario.2 don't buy the Raider just for the spacer. In fact I think the Universal spacer is a better design than the Raider's integrated design which has more small plastic parts and I have had friends break them.

The Raider has a steeper ramp angle but you can shim them using the spacer ATK makes or if you use Trab toes you can use the B&D classic spacers or buy from Spyder Jon

[Boissal]

Yeah, if the Oazo had a RV in the 12-14 range, I'd be more interested. I have other skis for meadow skipping -- I was hoping to charge a bit on this setup.

Re: Oazo, I've been skiing them for a couple season and have about 60 days on them without ever coming out of the binding. I'm 175 lbs without gear and ski with the reckless abandon of someone who still like to believe he's in his 20s. They're on my daily drivers and have seen their fair share of very steep bulletproof snow, 10' drops at speed, and extreme back-seat high-speed shenanigans. They feel as solid as my Superlite binding with an RV of 12. I'd say the RV8 is quite misleading and these bindings don't need to be confined to the meadow skipping ski.
For reference my usual DIN, when given the chance to adjust, is around 11 (obviously).

[lucknau]

Some pretty good deals on Trofeo bindings right now at Telemark Pyrenees. Shipping was sooo fast. I was stunned.

https://www.telemark-pyrenees.com/pr...s?currency=USD

[XXX-er]

probably cuz the shipping hub is close by in toulouse, I have also had really fast shipping from TP